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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:08 pm 
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Yup Josh I said what I had to say other than stating a personal opinion (which by definition is debatable) is not a personal attack… It's just that a personal opinon, which has not changed by the way.
And it’s quite clear that this is going nowhere real fast. So stick a fork in me and turn me over I’m done on this side.
:lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:38 pm 
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pops wrote:
oh yea.....I forgot....how about AR's can derail threads with off topic complaints and critisisms and that is allowed but everyone else is told they must "post in the proper forum" Or why is it that AR's can openly argue with a moderator and their is no offical action for that and it is not only allowed but it is encouraged and Wayne usually participates right along with them. [-X


I've not been on the forum very long but I've noticed this as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:27 pm 
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My response to roadside, moved here after originally being posted in another thread:

roadside wrote:
The problem is that there are so many varying points being addressed that it is virtually impossible to focus on specific aspects and still being able to formulate an educated opinion.


That's what I mean. If someone doesn't know any better, they'll throw out anything remotely related as if it were as significant as any other. They can't tell the difference because they don't know any better. Couple that with an audience that also doesn't know the difference but wanting to learn, and we have, well, what you described in your statement above--everyone trying to talk about everything simultaneously, as if all deserved equal consideration.

Now, I'm not thoroughly familiar with everyone's background here. But that up there sounds like group therapy to me, not anything close to a learning environment, much less a structured one.

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Anyone can create an opinion regarding a specific matter without delving into that topic. Does that mean they know what they're talking about? No.


I fail to see how one unfamliar with a topic is capable of developing an informed opinion on it. They can know what they're talking about, so to speak, but it would only be about their opinion, not the actual topic.

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But take the opinion of someone who has studied a variety of aspects, and then formulated an opinion, and you have someone who can participate in a reasonable discussion or debate.


Indeed. Such folks should facilitate if not moderate this type discussion. Mind you, I'm not talking about people that have been "educated" by surfing the internet.

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What inhibits learning the most is the cloudiness brought on by those trying to mask anything other than their opinion.


Quite honestly, I think you and alot of other newer members simply aren't used to having your opinions challenged. I've seen it through the years here with AR and anti-AR, enviro and anti-enviros alike. There is no need to get get hot under the collar when your opinion is questioned. Hell, just answer and question back. Quotes like the one above indicate that one has already taken something the wrong way--personally. Do that and you've killed discussion before you can raise a finger to point. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:39 pm 
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Perhaps you misunderstand what I'm seeking. I'm, in fact, hoping my opinions will be challenged, and will receive information from a variety of sources. Unfortunately, what seems to have been taking place so very often within these forums is the actions of a select few to dominate the information that is addressed, and for which someone is "allowed" to have an opinion. Honestly, Fosgate, I welcome having my opinion challenged because it provides me an opportunity to learn where I'm wrong, to correct that wrong, and to reformulate a better opinion with regard to the topic under consideration. It's how I learn. However, what can I be expected to learn if only one line of thought is presented, or allowed to be presented?

Do you see where I'm coming from?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:10 pm 
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I'll continue responding here since we are addressing how the forum is managed and thus, providing feedback. Josh or Mods, I trust you'll let us know if and when to put a cork in it.

roadside wrote:
However, what can I be expected to learn if only one line of thought is presented, or allowed to be presented?

Do you see where I'm coming from?


I do in the sense of the learning process. I however do not see anyone here being targetted or discouraged from voicing their opinion unless doing so violates forum rules.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:19 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Quite honestly, I think you and alot of other newer members simply aren't used to having your opinions challenged.


It looks like some of those who believe themselves to be more educated on particular subjects don't like having their opinion challenged. Its a two way street.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:26 am 
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rpedog wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Quite honestly, I think you and alot of other newer members simply aren't used to having your opinions challenged.


It looks like some of those who believe themselves to be more educated on particular subjects don't like having their opinion challenged. Its a two way street.


Is it? I try not to go so far as suggesting why one responds they way they do, only that a response does or doesn't appear as if one is accustomed to it being challenged or questioned. Those educated are indeed used to it and defend their positions with more vigor and thoroughness. Those that aren't are more prone going down the road claiming that they have a right to their opinion, that there is uncertainty and variation in everything, ad nauseam...basically stuff everyone already knows, especially the ones with letters behind their names.

Thing is, we do have some here more schooled and experienced than others. Whether or not they believe themselves to be is beside the point. They ARE and they will come across strong because of it. Be prepared for it. Don't be intimidated by it and please, for Pete's sake, don't take it personally. They respond that way to everyone, not just you.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:42 am 
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Quote:
I however do not see anyone here being targetted or discouraged from voicing their opinion unless doing so violates forum rules.


But some are discouraged from voicing their opinions by being told they are ignorant of certain facts and only spread misinformation to confuse others. I've also been told if I didn't get all my information from conservative rags I'd have more factual information instead of hearsay that is designed to confuse.

It seems when it comes to one subject, there is only one place to get your information, and that could be seen as targeting or discouraging others. Of course I am never discouraged by being targeted, only encouraged, as Wayne has seen.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:56 am 
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hunter88 wrote:
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I however do not see anyone here being targetted or discouraged from voicing their opinion unless doing so violates forum rules.


But some are discouraged from voicing their opinions by being told they are ignorant of certain facts and only spread misinformation to confuse others. I've also been told if I didn't get all my information from conservative rags I'd have more factual information instead of hearsay that is designed to confuse.

It seems when it comes to one subject, there is only one place to get your information, and that could be seen as targeting or discouraging others. Of course I am never discouraged by being targeted, only encouraged, as Wayne has seen.


Some people are ignorant of facts and being told so is not the same as preventing them from expressing those views. I am not commenting on whether you or anyone else specifically fits into this category, but there is a long tradition of debate that exists in and out of academic circles and in that tradition, dissent and disagreement is perfectly acceptable here. People who do not understand the topics they are debating about yet continue to express uninformed opinion will most certainly be challenged, but their right to do so should never be.

-josh


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:12 am 
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Quote:
People who do not understand the topics they are debating about yet continue to express uninformed opinion will most certainly be challenged, but their right to do so should never be.


But a lesser person may be discouraged from continuing a discussion when anything they say about a certain subject is considered wrong because it does not agree with the so called consensus.

If a disenting opinion is shown to be wrong, then the person giving the wrong opinion can understand where they were wrong, and maybe form a new opinion. But when the disenting opinion is being told your statments on the subject show your ignorance in this matter, it may lead some to stop posting.

Of course being told I don't know what I'm talking about has never stopped me before. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:14 am 
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josh knauer wrote:
hunter88 wrote:
Quote:
I however do not see anyone here being targetted or discouraged from voicing their opinion unless doing so violates forum rules.


But some are discouraged from voicing their opinions by being told they are ignorant of certain facts and only spread misinformation to confuse others. I've also been told if I didn't get all my information from conservative rags I'd have more factual information instead of hearsay that is designed to confuse.

It seems when it comes to one subject, there is only one place to get your information, and that could be seen as targeting or discouraging others. Of course I am never discouraged by being targeted, only encouraged, as Wayne has seen.


Some people are ignorant of facts and being told so is not the same as preventing them from expressing those views. I am not commenting on whether you or anyone else specifically fits into this category, but there is a long tradition of debate that exists in and out of academic circles and in that tradition, dissent and disagreement is perfectly acceptable here. People who do not understand the topics they are debating about yet continue to express uninformed opinion will most certainly be challenged, but their right to do so should never be.

-josh

Eventhough some maybe ignorant of the facts doesn't excuse others making fun of the fact, this fun is always made in a discreet way of course. To my understanding this forum is for all from all wallks of life not just academics and them that are less informed should't be "bullied" ot of discussion by "intelletuals" just becaue they have a better writing skills.
IMO this happens often.

Wayne is a value to this site bt the way and is a very good moderator.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:22 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Is it? I try not to go so far as suggesting why one responds they way they do, only that a response does or doesn't appear as if one is accustomed to it being challenged or questioned. Those educated are indeed used to it and defend their positions with more vigor and thoroughness. Those that aren't are more prone going down the road claiming that they have a right to their opinion, that there is uncertainty and variation in everything, ad nauseam...basically stuff everyone already knows, especially the ones with letters behind their names.


Yes it certainly is a two way street. Those who believe they are more experienced or schooled often don't like to be questioned or challenged. Word count does not equate to thoroughness nor does "out-googling" someone.

Over the years I've learned that letters behind the names mean very little. I've known many who are knowledgable in a very narrow field but outside that field they are not.

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Thing is, we do have some here more schooled and experienced than others. Whether or not they believe themselves to be is beside the point. They ARE and they will come across strong because of it. Be prepared for it. Don't be intimidated by it and please, for Pete's sake, don't take it personally. They respond that way to everyone, not just you.


I never take anything personally however it is patently obvious that some who believe they are more schooled and experienced are indeed as subjective and biased as anyone. Intimidated by it? Bored is more like it. Especially when one baits or tries twisting arguments.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:37 pm 
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If everyone here would be perfectly honest, the issue and root cause is as plain as the nose on everyones faces. However it is being danced around like an elephant in the room. Al and WAYNE should both have serious back aches right about now from bending over backwards. AL trying to denounce every AR post that is made, and WAYNE trying to defend every one that is made. It is like some weird episode of the twilight zone and to be 100% honest it is getting old. Moderators SHOULD do just that... MODERATE the board and make sure the rules are followed. The board should take on a life of its own and morph from side to side as the posters here change and are added to and taken away from. The moderators job should NOT BE to try to balance out the debates but to allow them to take their own course as long as they stay within the rules of the forum. By being a moderator you give up a bit of freedom in posting your opinions on subjects IMO as it is seen as "official" even if the font isn't green..... I am not gonna give an "I'M LEAVING HERE" post as I have no intention of doing that . However this crap is getting redundant and very very old FAST.

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