EnviroLink Forum

Community • Ecology • Connection
It is currently Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:27 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:10 pm 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:27 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
I have been wondering lately about the huge increase in the number of people who seem obessed with travel, specifically airline travel.
In my opinion this is one of the worst GHG contributors,for a number of reasons, but my thoughts were mostly about the reasons behind why so many people are flying these days.
Are people searching for something missing in their lives, family connection and social interaction perhaps? Or is it something else? I know there has been a big push to get people accustomed to this while they are still in school but that does not explain the whole situation.
Many of the people I know including those who self identify as environmentalists fly on a regular basis. This just makes no sence to me.
Any thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:21 am 
Offline
Member with 200 posts
Member with 200 posts

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:30 pm
Posts: 224
We're a nation of immigrants both externally and internally. That means we have family all over the place and that goes with proliferating opportunities all over. Planes are a useful vehicle. Until we develop real local communities I can't see that the frequent use of airplane travel would be any surprise or requiring profound analysis.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:28 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:17 am
Posts: 9614
My cat Ki-Ki cannot pass up the chance to climb into a new box or plastic bag. He's done this literally hundreds of times but he can't help himself: he simply must know what's inside.

Humans are like that; places we haven;t been call to us.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:02 pm 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:27 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
I agree,with both of your posts Dingo and Iowanic ,very true that our families and our curiosity are part of what gets us to travel across country or further. Maybe we help create some of this situation by not encouraging our children to make a life closer to where they come from?
But my pondering is more about the drastic rise in flight as a first holiday choice. Folks here used to take maybe one big trip in a lifetime, now it is common for those same people to take two maybe three trips part way round the world every year. For a handfull of days each, this just does not compute for me.
Each flight by a small family creates more ghg emissions than their collective lives do for the rest of the year.
My wonder is that many of these same people claim to care about all sorts of environmental issues but can not grasp that one choice they might make each year wipes out all the good they have sought to do? It is almost like we seem to have blinders on when the source of environmental destruction is ourselves.
Hope this doesn't come off as a rant I am honestly trying to understand the thought process involved that can justify the harm/benefit ratio of such travel for those that are aware of their impact.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:50 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:59 am
Posts: 2402
Location: Central Colorado
Kids are not taught the immorality of fossil fuel use. Instead the marvel of flying, like sugar, is addictive. I know I was hooked for 30 years on ASMEL, H, I to the CFI and AGI level of mastery. I also was getting into population science, geology, and ecology around that time.
People will sadly have to accept that the jet age is over, the diesel age is over, and all except Gen IV nuclear age is over. All the traveling from suburbs, to three different trash trucks down the street every Friday idiocy, all driven by growth only economics, human over-breeding, and general stupidity with the ignorance from it. Greed and selfishness/self-centeredness, along with over-tolerance, especially of crowds, are all negative ecological traits that were much less 11K yrs. ago.
Some have always wanted to explore, or are unhappy living where they are. Instant communications and fast travel have hooked civilization into an addiction to fossil fuels and industrial output, farming, and transportation. The overpopulation started with the use of the dirty crap, on top of over-tolerance to the noise, choking foul air, towns with fixed agriculture, and even eventual dis-connect with nature. We went to the moon and Voyager is outside the solar system, yet we are virtually trapped in this biosphere on Earth
We can still travel with electric vehicles including solar gliders, electric vehicles and hybrids for a very small emissions average. The return of sails to water travel. More bicycles, and more walking, with jobs and relatives nearby. Of course, the main thing is a vastly reduced population of people who do not travel far. All nutrition filled by local agriculture, with no 400HP diesel help. Even horses have to be limited, or else we'll be knee deep in it.
Eisenhower's Highway System opened it up for family car travel and RVs, to the jammed up freeways of the monstropolises of the USA. Wasting gas at idle (unlike my Mariner). The worst thing was LBJ's growth only economy and stupid immigration change from a great system.
The rich can no longer really have their HGHG blowing yachts and jets, and the middle class can no longer jet around. People must realize the carbon footprint of all they do including the multiplier of child and children going up geometrically.
It's 2 Minutes to Midnight, or the party is almost over, and the hangover will be a killer. #-o :mrgreen:

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:21 am 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:27 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Kids are not taught the immorality of fossil fuel use. Instead the marvel of flying, like sugar, is addictive. I know I was hooked for 30 years on ASMEL, H, I to the CFI and AGI level of mastery. I also was getting into population science, geology, and ecology around that time.
People will sadly have to accept that the jet age is over, the diesel age is over, and all except Gen IV nuclear age is over. All the traveling from suburbs, to three different trash trucks down the street every Friday idiocy, all driven by growth only economics, human over-breeding, and general stupidity with the ignorance from it. Greed and selfishness/self-centeredness, along with over-tolerance, especially of crowds, are all negative ecological traits that were much less 11K yrs. ago.
Some have always wanted to explore, or are unhappy living where they are. Instant communications and fast travel have hooked civilization into an addiction to fossil fuels and industrial output, farming, and transportation. The overpopulation started with the use of the dirty crap, on top of over-tolerance to the noise, choking foul air, towns with fixed agriculture, and even eventual dis-connect with nature. We went to the moon and Voyager is outside the solar system, yet we are virtually trapped in this biosphere on Earth
We can still travel with electric vehicles including solar gliders, electric vehicles and hybrids for a very small emissions average. The return of sails to water travel. More bicycles, and more walking, with jobs and relatives nearby. Of course, the main thing is a vastly reduced population of people who do not travel far. All nutrition filled by local agriculture, with no 400HP diesel help. Even horses have to be limited, or else we'll be knee deep in it.
Eisenhower's Highway System opened it up for family car travel and RVs, to the jammed up freeways of the monstropolises of the USA. Wasting gas at idle (unlike my Mariner). The worst thing was LBJ's growth only economy and stupid immigration change from a great system.
The rich can no longer really have their HGHG blowing yachts and jets, and the middle class can no longer jet around. People must realize the carbon footprint of all they do including the multiplier of child and children going up geometrically.
It's 2 Minutes to Midnight, or the party is almost over, and the hangover will be a killer. #-o :mrgreen:

You nailed it Johhny ,I agree with you exactly.
Our schools are sending exactly the opposite message, instead of every class taking a world adventure (where I live schools arrange global student jet holidays-not exchanges-holidays) , we should be teaching them how to live locally. This is teaching them very young to ignore the effects their pleasure seeking has upon the environment.
Regarding your comment on farming I can say with confidence where most of the fossil fuel consumption happens on modern farms. Drumroll....personal transportation. Most people are surprised to learn that grain farmers generally consume more fuel on the road than in the field. As farm size increases one would expect more efficiency here but exactly the opposite happens.
The next highest FF input into our food is fertlizers and pesticides.
Then we get to fuel consumed in the actual field equipment.
The remaing FF consumption is used for heating,cooling,drying,handling.
Modern farming is possible only with cheap abundant fuel, what other options could we have for the production of our food?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:56 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:59 am
Posts: 2402
Location: Central Colorado
Farmer; "Modern farming is possible only with cheap abundant fuel, what other options could we have for the production of our food?"

Well, many are trying GMO for more production and less water use and pesticide/herbicide use. Some are into algae for food and others organic plastics to eat. Nuts!
Don't forget the energy used to pump water, process and distribute the food supply.
The only option is to let nature take its course with the crash of the human population. :shock: :mrgreen:

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:40 am 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:27 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Farmer; "Modern farming is possible only with cheap abundant fuel, what other options could we have for the production of our food?"

Well, many are trying GMO for more production and less water use and pesticide/herbicide use. Some are into algae for food and others organic plastics to eat. Nuts!
Don't forget the energy used to pump water, process and distribute the food supply.
The only option is to let nature take its course with the crash of the human population. :shock: :mrgreen:

You may be right, but I truly hope not. I have spent the greatest portion of my life working on production methods requiring less and less FF. Excellent production can be achieved with a fraction of the energy we now use. It can even be done with zero fuel, we have mostly just forgotten how. To my knowledge this information has no place in current agriculture education, the tend is an even more exaggerated version of what we are doing now. Bigger farms more fuel,less people.
Right now the North American ag. system is the most inefficient and unsustainable on the planet in terms of fossil energy consumed per calorie of food delivered. Then nearly half of what is harvested goes to waste in shipping and storage before it can be eaten. This is crazy .No wonder we are in trouble.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:54 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:59 am
Posts: 2402
Location: Central Colorado
Sustainable agriculture requires a sustainable population. I have in my hands the gold fobbed pocket watch with little gold double blade folding knife. Remembering all the scientific discussions we had. My Great Uncle Rex Cox was a contemporary of Borlaug and Professor Emeritus of Agriculture at the U of M.
They thought they would be helping people, but instead just kept the stimulus going for a classic half bell mammalian population crash.
If we keep burning fossil fuels, CAGW will worsen exponentially and we will go extinct with nearly all or all other species, including thermal vent life. If we don't keep burning fossil fuels, then production and distribution would fall to cause mass starvation or malnutrition to diseases, and wars, et al, and the population will crash, then very slowly recover---maybe. Temperature rise will stay below 1.8*C and havoc will reign for 400 years. That is the hopium. :mrgreen:

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:39 am 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:27 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Sustainable agriculture requires a sustainable population. I have in my hands the gold fobbed pocket watch with little gold double blade folding knife. Remembering all the scientific discussions we had. My Great Uncle Rex Cox was a contemporary of Borlaug and Professor Emeritus of Agriculture at the U of M.
They thought they would be helping people, but instead just kept the stimulus going for a classic half bell mammalian population crash.
If we keep burning fossil fuels, CAGW will worsen exponentially and we will go extinct with nearly all or all other species, including thermal vent life. If we don't keep burning fossil fuels, then production and distribution would fall to cause mass starvation or malnutrition to diseases, and wars, et al, and the population will crash, then very slowly recover---maybe. Temperature rise will stay below 1.8*C and havoc will reign for 400 years. That is the hopium. :mrgreen:

Sadly you may be correct Johhny about the final outcome for our species,as we just can't seem to handle long view issues. You give an excellent example of how caring,intelligent people unwittingly further the problems. They were using the best information available at the time.
It is a myth that our current definition of efficiency will solve anything. Your example shows this clearly. For every gain in efficiency we actually consume more of what ever it is we are conserving.
If there is to be any hope we need to each make decisions to live as examples of sustainability and teach our kids to do the same. Be the change you want to see.
In the theme of the thread one of the easiest and biggest steps we can make is ....not to fly.....?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group