EnviroLink Forum

iovanic;
"Sounds like I stepped on some toes.
That's okay, it's not the first time.
If we've caused these problems then we can solve them, forest.
It's a matter of will and want."

No mate, you could not step on my toes if you tried twice as hard.
I just call bullshit when i see it.
Like your latest faulty logic "If we've caused these problems then we can solve them, forest."
Try driving off a cliff and driving back up the cliff then hey?

But that may well be too personal and offend you so instead explain to me how we will restore the 60-70% of species destroyed already.
Cloning i suppose or maybe we can just imagine them?
After all If we've caused these problems then we can solve them right?
Then you can go on to enlighten us on refreezing the Arctic because If we've caused these problems then we can solve them right...
After that i will give you some more shit without stepping on your toes, or you on mine

Johhny you crack me up mate from your prepper industrial perspective "
"The main thing is very little emissions from the vastly lower human population. Let's hope the lesson is learned."...lol!
Which humans have very low emissions and low populations?
Oh wait...Sushil has just described that endlessly...hunter-gatherers.
Why do you even post on his topic honestly?
And why bother with predictions when no sane person or scientist does anymore?
You quote Shakhova's 50gt methane burst, which she never said already to begin with.
She said a large release of whatever amount, 50 was just a random figure sucked from her lips while she is out working her butt off.

Thousands of factories and drones lol, you are smart and insane it seems but i mean no disrespect haha!
Wish you luck in your bunker which i suspect you have well stocked

I guess someone has a different view on what the problem actually is.

My view is the problem is the DIRECTION mankind in going: Continue that and the world's eco-system will be trashed, damaged beyond repair. Not my idea of something to be proud of or look forward to.

My view also includes that direction can be changed; paths rerouted, goals switched from petty, short-term wealth-building to fixing where we went wrong and building a future we can be proud to hand to those who follow. We got a chance to be the folks who make the biggest and most constructive changes in history.

But we have to want to. That's where the 'will' part comes in, forest dweller.
Some want to sit on the sidelines and whine and while I'm glad the fellow watching the sheep comes yelling about wolves, I don't think much when he first blames others for the flocks peril, then stands by while others have to rush off to save the sheep.

Damn right we can change the direction of the world: we're the ones who made the problems and we're the ones with the opportunity to fix them.

You can join in or go on whining.
Your choice.

I also believe that the path can be reversed. My hope is we start to use our technology for good rather than bad. One way we can make a difference is in transportation. EV vehicle technology is becoming better and more popular. The government has even begun to encourage consumers to take advantage of environment friendly tech. In general US sentiment is in favor of expanding tax credits for EVs https://www.autolist.com/electric#news= ... c-vehicles
The conversation about healing our environment is more open than ever before and we are beginning to apply tech appropriately.

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The last few posts in this thread were about the possibility of saving environment......Your house catches fire.......If you make efforts to stop the fire in its initial stages you will succeed in saving the house.......If you try saving your house after 99% of it has been destroyed by fire, you will only manage to save the last 1% of your house.

You cannot save a person after killing him.
You can only save him by not killing him.

You cannot save environment after killing it with industrial activity.
You can only save it by not killing it with industrial activity.

How much environment has been destroyed?
How much environment is left on earth?

More than 99% of environment has already been destroyed........Industrial revolution began 250 years ago but most of the industrial activity took place in the last hundred years........Hundred years of industrial activity has destroyed what was created by nature in millions of years.

Industrial society has decimated forest cover with millions of industries and corporations.......Industrial society has destroyed billions of acres of forests........This has decimated millions of land species that lived in forests........Reversal of this destruction can only happen in millions of years.

Industrial society has decimated millions of marine species with industrial fishing, billions of tonnes of industrial chemicals and waste, acidification of oceans, by creating oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans.........Reversal of this destruction can only happen in millions of years.

Regeneration / revival of millions of land and marine species will require a period of millions of years.

If your house gets destroyed by fire you can build another house.

If environment gets destroyed by industrial activity you cannot create another environment because man cannot create environment.........Only nature can create environment over a period of millions of years.
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More than 99% of environmental collapse has already happened........Millions of land and marine species have already been decimated.......Only human collapse is yet to happen........Human collapse will come with lightning speed now.

99% of your house has been destroyed by fire........What do you do to save the remaining 1%???.......You have to douse the fire immediately........You cannot say you want to save what is left of your house but you don't want to put out the fire.

Industrial activity has destroyed 99% of environment........If you want to save the remaining 1% you have to stop all industrial activity immediately........You cannot say you want to save the little environment that is left but you don't want to stop industrial activity.

Billions of urban people are running millions of industries and corporations that have already destroyed 99% of environment........If you want to save the remaining 1% environment you have to stop millions of industries and corporations immediately.

Is it going to happen?
Never.
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It is all over this time.......If man comes back on earth in future he should have the wisdom to stop at agrarian stage.

Man lived in forests for hundreds of thousands of years hardly destroying any environment........Man lived in agrarian society for 10,000 years destroying very little environment.......Man has lived in industrial society for just about 100 years during which he has destroyed the entire planet.
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"Food Searching Species" did not destroy environment in millions of years........"Food Producing Society" destroyed very little environment in 10,000 years........"Consumer Goods Producing Society" has destroyed the planet in just 100 years.

Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.......Agrarian society did not destroy oceans.........Oceans were almost 100% safe in agrarian stage.........Agrarian society did not destroy the atmosphere with billions of tonnes of industrial gases, automobile exhaust, airline and shipping exhaust.........Agrarian society destroyed only a fraction of forests destroyed by industrial society.........Industrial society has destroyed forests for agriculture PLUS industry..........Agrarian society destroyed forests only for agriculture.

Environmental collapse happens when you destroy all three ecosystems - Forests, Oceans and Atmosphere.........Only industrial society has destroyed all three.......Only industrial society could have destroyed all three.

Hundred years of industrial activity has destroyed what was created by nature in millions of years.
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"I guess someone has a different view on what the problem actually is.

My view is the problem is the DIRECTION mankind in going: Continue that and the world's eco-system will be trashed, damaged beyond repair. Not my idea of something to be proud of or look forward to.

My view also includes that direction can be changed; paths rerouted, goals switched from petty, short-term wealth-building to fixing where we went wrong and building a future we can be proud to hand to those who follow. We got a chance to be the folks who make the biggest and most constructive changes in history.

But we have to want to. That's where the 'will' part comes in, forest dweller.
Some want to sit on the sidelines and whine and while I'm glad the fellow watching the sheep comes yelling about wolves, I don't think much when he first blames others for the flocks peril, then stands by while others have to rush off to save the sheep.

Damn right we can change the direction of the world: we're the ones who made the problems and we're the ones with the opportunity to fix them.

You can join in or go on whining.
Your choice."

My choice to agree with your "heroic" way of thinking to save the planet hey?
The fact you resort to personal attacks on top does not qualify you as such.
The whining seems familiar to you, not me.
You demonstrate only the industrial washing of your brain when you say all problems can be fixed by same.
And fail to even answer or consider the extinction i mentioned.
That is the best you got iovanic, calling others whiners...how mature.
Makes you an enemy that is stopping your pipe dream of "humans" fixing what they destroy.
You have not understood a single word Mr. Yadav said.

My 'name-calling' or 'problem-labeling';(which seems a more apt description, methinx) has had one effect: it's opened conversation on the subject.
I don't understand what the poster means? Go back and see how old this thread is, forest. You'll see I was among the very first to reply.
Not buying into the gloom and doom doesn't mean lack of understanding.
It means there's more to it then just that gloom and doom.
The end of the world isn't here yet, forest....unless you've already given up.
That's always the first and often final step to failure...giving up.

Good luck with that.

I never bought one of those 3 million dollar stocked and equiped for 20 years bunkers. I couldn't afford it and couldn't stand living underground in a self made prison. I'm too old. We don't know for sure, but it is a good bet that the PIOMAS zero ice point reached in 2022 will begin the rapid expansion of the 1500 GTs of Arctic methane deposits. As it is, since 2011 the hundreds of 10 meter wide methane fountains in summer became thousands up to a kilometer wide and 'boiling seas' from methane gas exscape as far as Yupik fishermen could see. Navies are up there to ignite them rather that let them be the 100X CO2 heat trapping the first year. The 50 GTs could be in a burp with its 2 pound sensitivity to kinetic sudden expansion 170 times in volume, or it the themperature goes up 2*F from latent heat build up. It could be a rapidly cummulative bunch of releases to 50 GT one year, 200GT the next and 500 the next. Most will certainly find out with global temperature rise acclerating to 1*F per year and more until extinction of surface life and then on to thermal max with clouds like Venus, perhaps going into equatorial superrotation. Maybe there will be that attempt of using nukes like a Toba Effect to stop it. I point out the only way out possible besides Divine Intervention. It is far too late to control the population and pollution already in the system causing the inevitable Blue Ocean event and zero ice , and that darn latent heat effect. We know it went up fast at one point during the PETM and the Permian end. It could be our demise next decade, and possibly the 2040s if that methane is just Natalia's fantasy. Many people alive today will witness it. Indeed, we have been witnessing the begnning stages for a while, and it will not get any better, even if everyone went all solar one child, quit eating meat and no fossil fuel use, tomorrow.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

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The whole world is going to die from starvation and thirst in the coming years.......Industrial society is destroying agriculture by destroying fertile soil and by changing global weather with industrial activity.......Billions of acres of agricultural soil has been destroyed by industry........Industrial activity is destroying food and water........There will be severe shortage of food and water in the coming years.

If industrial activity for production of thousands of consumer goods is not stopped immediately, there will be no agriculture of any kind left in this world.......There will be no industrial agriculture, no organic agriculture, no permaculture.......Every kind of agriculture will be destroyed.......Every method of food production will get destroyed.

Food is going to vanish from earth in the coming years.........Agriculture requires regularity of weather........It requires heat, cold and rain at the right time and in the right measure..

Global weather is regulated by Forest Cover, Ice Cover, Ocean Temperature and Atmospheric Temperature........Industrial activity has decimated Forest Cover.........Industrial activity has decimated Ice Cover / Glaciers........Oceans and the Atmosphere have been made warmer.........These changes have made the weather extreme, irregular and unpredictable........This has led to drastic increase in the intensity and frequency of Droughts, Floods, Storms, Cyclones, Periods of Extreme Heat and Cold........Agricultural production has already been affected by these changes........Agriculture is going to collapse completely in the near future.

There will be no food for man to eat........Man has already decimated fish in the oceans with industrial fishing.

The land and the sea are the only two sources of food on earth.........Industrial man has destroyed both.

Industrial activity is melting glaciers that give birth to rivers in this world........Most rivers will cease to exist very soon.......Industrial society has already destroyed millions of ponds and lakes with construction industry and other industries........Groundwater reserves have already been depleted by diesel and electric pumps.

No Food.........No Water.

End of man on earth.
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There are three options.

We continue with present lifestyle.
We use force/ sabotage to stop industrial society.
We dismantle industrial society voluntarily.

If we continue with present lifestyle humans will be wiped out in the next few years and the planet will be totally destroyed.

If we use force/ sabotage to stop industrial society humans will still get wiped out in the next few years and the planet will be contaminated / poisoned for thousands of years.......If force/ sabotage is used, cities will collapse first when supply of food and water will be disrupted......Billions of city people will rush out in search of food, water and land......They will first wipe out the villagers and small communities because they will have the advantage of numbers......Then they will fight each other for control of food, water and land......There will be no survivors......Only very few living in very remote areas of the world will survive.

If force/ sabotage is used to stop industrial society this planet will be so contaminated that living would be worse than death.......There are 600 nuclear plants in this world where nuclear material has to be kept cooled to avoid chain reaction and melting.......If force / sabotage is used these nuclear plants will start exploding like chernobyl and fukushima poisoning the entire planet with radioactive dust.
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The only solution that can work is voluntary dismantling of industrial society.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because industrialization has increased human population to over 7 billion from 1 billion in 1800 AD.

Give free food to the urban population but immediately stop urban work for production of thousands of consumer goods........A fraction of world population is already producing food for entire population.

This planet is very small........Just 40,000 km in circumference.

Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food.

Forest man destroyed environment only for food.

Agrarian man destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter PLUS thousands of consumer goods and services.

Industrial man has destroyed Exponential Extra Environment.

EXPONENTIAL EXTRA ENVIRONMENT.

It is the urban population of industrial society that has destroyed exponential extra environment.

The collective work of human society must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.........Millions of other species only get food from earth.

Give free food to the urban population but immediately stop urban work for production of thousands of consumer goods........A fraction of world population is already producing food for entire population.
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Physical Work and Subjective Experience did not destroy the planet in millions of years..........Scientific / Technological Thinking has destroyed the planet in just hundred years.

We can use our time and energy for three kinds of activities........Physical Work, Subjective Work (Experience) and Mental Work.

For millions of years environment did not get destroyed because activity was limited to physical work or subjective experience.........Millions of animal species did physical work........Man did physical work in hunter_gatherer stage and agrarian stage.......A very small percentage of population that did not do physical work spent its time and energy on subjective experience - religion, spirituality, yoga, meditation, pranayama and the arts.

Largescale destruction of environment began when man started using his time and energy for mental work - Science, Technology, Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics, Business, Finance, Economics.........This led to invention of industrial machines running on Steam, Electricity and Oil........It led to industrialization and production (and selling) of thousands of consumer goods and services.

As long as we limited our activity to physical work or subjective experience we destroyed very little environment.

When we switched over to Scientific / Technological Thinking, we started producing (and selling) thousands of consumer goods in millions of industries and corporations and ended up destroying the planet in just about 100 years.
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"If force/ sabotage is used to stop industrial society this planet will be so contaminated that living would be worse than death.......There are 600 nuclear plants in this world where nuclear material has to be kept cooled to avoid chain reaction and melting.......If force / sabotage is used these nuclear plants will start exploding like chernobyl and fukushima poisoning the entire planet with radioactive dust.

The only solution that can work is voluntary dismantling of industrial society."

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I quite agree Sushil, and we know there won't be voluntary dismantling of industrial society.
It will keep trying to industrialize with new industry on top of the old until it collapses which will be very soon.
The nuclear legacy is much worse...the energy sector is 450 instead of 600 plants i believe + 1260 spent fuel ponds which have much more material + who knows how many reactors in shipping, military and other sectors of industry + radioactive materials used in various applications of daily life from medical facilities to smoke detectors + nuclear weaponry + nuclear logistics.
And the reactors and fuel ponds will not be contained to whatever degree like Chernobyl or Fukushima but pollute unhindered...full meltdown.

And nuclear legacy will not be the only industrial legacy.
Hundreds of thousands of chemical ticking time bombs will make Bhopal disaster look like a pleasant affair.
Countless chemicals, pesticides, poisons from households to businesses and institutions of any kind littering the planet aside from the production and storage facilities.
Oil, gas and countless forms of pollution will further pollute and be released in the same way with floods and hellish fires like never seen worsening the scenario unchecked in cities in infrastructure with everything in them, as well as nature and rural areas.

With Arctic collapse imminent, there isn't even time for voluntary dismantling of industrial society...it will not do so anyway.
End of all known life in the universe.

Life is a lot tougher than that. Even if we go to a full Methane Turnover Event like the Permian Great Dying and add in all the radiation and chemicals, there are still forms of life that can survive. Extremophiles that live far underground and thermal vent life, some type of jellyfish, cyanobacteria species that can bring back the atmosphere, and these little fellas http://mentalfloss.com/article/71380/7- ... ardigrades

They provide the genetic material that over time re-evolves other life like plants and animals larger than microbial. It may take 50 million years to get back robust diversity of species, like it did after the Permian Event. Intelligent life may find our fossils and learn what not to do.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

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Degrees = Destruction.........Education has destroyed this planet in just hundred years.......Millions of other species did not go to university and they did not destroy this planet in millions of years........Forest man did not go to university and he did not destroy this planet in hundreds of thousands of years.........Agrarian man did not go to university and he destroyed very little environment in 10,000 years........Industrial man went to university and he has destroyed this planet in just hundred years.

Industry has destroyed forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere........Industry has decimated millions of land and marine species........The farmer is not running industry........The non-farming population is running industry........Urban population is running industry........Billions of university graduates are running millions of industries and corporations that have destroyed this planet.........Billions of Scientists, Engineers, MBA's, Economists, Business and Finance Graduates are running millions of industries and corporations that have destroyed this planet.

You can never save this world without stopping urban jobs and professions.......You can never save this world without closing down the universities.

Stop Education.........Close down Universities.
Stop Urban Work..........Close down the Cities.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth......This planet was non-industrial for millions of years.......Millions of other species lived in a non-industrial world for millions of years........Man lived in forests for hundreds of thousands of years.......In agrarian society for 10,000 years......Industrial society has barely existed for hundred years.......Industrial revolution began 250 years ago but most of the world became industrialized only in the last 100 years.......This planet was non-industrial for more than 99.99% of the time life has existed on it......Hundred years of industrial activity has destroyed what was created by nature in millions of years.
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For millions of years there was just one main activity / occupation on earth - "Searching for Food" / "Producing Food"..........Urban population of industrial society is the anomaly that is producing consumer goods and services.

For millions of years, both adults and the offspring of millions of animal species "searched for food".

For 1 million years in hunter_gatherer society both adults and children "searched for food".

For 10,000 years in agrarian society, most of the adults and children "produced food"

In industrial society which has only existed for 100 years, urban adults are producing consumer goods and services in industries and corporations..........Their children go to schools and universities where they learn how to produce and sell consumer goods in future.
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What would happen to your home if 1000 people entered and started working non-stop, picking up all the things lying in your home, breaking them up to produce new things out of them?

Your home will get ruined in one day.

This is exactly what has happened to the planet in the last 100 years.......Billions of urban people worked non-stop in millions of industries and corporations producing thousands of consumer goods which has led to the destruction of forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere........It has led to the decimation of millions of land and marine species.
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This planet is very small........Just 40,000 km in circumference.

Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food.

Forest man destroyed environment only for food.

Agrarian man destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter PLUS thousands of consumer goods and services.

Industrial man has destroyed Exponential Extra Environment.

EXPONENTIAL EXTRA ENVIRONMENT.

It is the urban population of industrial society that has destroyed exponential extra environment.

The collective work of human society must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.........Millions of other species only get food from earth.

Millions of other species have already been decimated by industrial activity.......More than 99% of collapse has already happened......Man is next on the list.......Human collapse will come with lightning speed now.
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Out of thousands of our ancestors that have lived on earth only the last three or four attended modern schools and universities.......The nonsense of schools and universities came with industrialization and urabanization........Some students attended spiritual and religious schools before industrialization but they were altogether different kinds of institutions.......They did not prepare students for manufacturing and selling consumer goods and services after passing out.

For hundreds of thousands of years most of the people did physical work.......Mental work / desk jobs came into existence only after industrialization and urbanization.

Physical work is normal.......Mental work / Desk job is the anomaly.

Degrees = Destruction.
Education has destroyed the planet.
Universities have destroyed the planet.

The most dangerous and destructive industry in this world is Education Industry.

All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.

Education Industry is the source of all Industrial Activity.....All other Industries are by products of Education Industry.

Education Industry is the Mother of all Industries.

Education Industry is the Mother of all Environmental Destruction in this world.

Destruction of environment can never be stopped until Universities are closed down.

Decimation of millions of species cannot be stopped until Universities are closed down.

Destruction of Forests, Rivers and Oceans cannot be stopped until Universities are closed down.
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Bring this Technology.....Bring that Technology.
Bring this Technology.....Bring that Technology.

Industrial Society trying to save environment not by stopping Industrial Activity but by changing Industrial Technology is like the Police trying to save the victims of mass shooting not by stopping the Gunman but by changing his Gun.
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"Keep a balance between Industry and Environment"......????

You cannot keep a balance between two things when one of them destroys the other.

When your house catches fire do you save it by keeping a balance between house and fire???

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Industrial man has destroyed everything on the surface of earth......under the surface of earth......above the surface of earth.

Industrial man has destroyed all things on the surface of earth......forests, rivers, glaciers, fertile soil.

Industrial man has destroyed everything under the surface of earth by taking out coal, oil, gas and hundreds of metals and minerals.

Industrial man has destroyed millions of marine species below the surface of oceans.

Industrial man has destroyed the sky / atmosphere with billions of tonnes of industrial gases.......automobile, rail, airline and shipping exhaust......thousands of satellites and space junk.

On the surface......below the surface......above the surface.......industrial man has destroyed everywhere.
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Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.......Agrarian society did not destroy oceans.........Oceans were almost 100% safe in agrarian stage.........Agrarian society did not destroy the atmosphere with millions of tonnes of industrial gases and automobile exhaust.........Agrarian society destroyed only a fraction of forests destroyed by industrial society.........Industrial society has destroyed forests for agriculture PLUS industry..........Agrarian society destroyed forests only for agriculture.

Environmental collapse happens when you destroy all three ecosystems - Forests, Oceans and Atmosphere.........Only industrial society has destroyed all three.......Only industrial society could have destroyed all three.

Hundred years of industrial activity has destroyed what was created by nature in millions of years.
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Man has spent more than 99.9% of his time on earth in non-industrial societies.

Man lived in forests for hundreds of thousands of years........Man lived in villages in agrarian society for 10,000 years........Man has lived in industrial society for just about 100 years during which he has destroyed the entire planet.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.
That is the worth of Urban Jobs, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.
Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.
Stop Education.........Close down Universities.
Stop Urban Work..........Close down the Cities.
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