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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:22 am 
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Sushi undermines himself by not acknowledging the obvious advantages of industrialization. This is not a legal brief; you are supposed to start with reality and then from that develop a hopefully coherent analysis. So to provide balance here are some of the advantages:

1. It supports more people with a longer life expectancy.

2. I provides lots of labor savings devices and energy to run them.

3. It concentrates surplus value, purchasing knowledge breakthroughs, for instance in medicine. Think of smallpox being eradicated.

4. People can travel further faster.

5. An individual has at his finger tips encyclopedic amounts of information.

And so on. I think one can develop an analysis that the advantages of industrialization fail to out weigh the disadvantages in the long term but to pretend there aren't advantages is just putting your head in the sand.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:43 am 
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Dingo wrote:
Sushi undermines himself by not acknowledging the obvious advantages of industrialization. This is not a legal brief; you are supposed to start with reality and then from that develop a hopefully coherent analysis. So to provide balance here are some of the advantages:

1. It supports more people with a longer life expectancy.


To some this is a disadvantage as it is a factor in overpopulation.

Quote:
2. I provides lots of labor savings devices and energy to run them.


Again, less labor and more time and energy may lead to more procreation and that problem of overpopulation. Also the energy production has negative impacts on the environment and thus society.

Quote:
3. It concentrates surplus value, purchasing knowledge breakthroughs, for instance in medicine. Think of smallpox being eradicated.


The removal of natural population controls and thus a factor for overpopulation.

Quote:
4. People can travel further faster.


Not necessary and uses that energy that was a concern abouve.

Quote:
5. An individual has at his finger tips encyclopedic amounts of information.


Again, not necessary if that individual only needs to subsistence farm and hunt, which is the ultimate goal. Education leads to advancement and that is bad.

Quote:
And so on. I think one can develop an analysis that the advantages of industrialization fail to out weigh the disadvantages in the long term but to pretend there aren't advantages is just putting your head in the sand.


I think that is the goal. Revert back to the "good old days" of mainly subsistence farming and not allow any new advancement because it will cause problems. It is a subjective view which is what the determination of advantage and disadvantage is in the final decision.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:08 am 
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o some this is a disadvantage as it is a factor in overpopulation.


Longer life expectancy does tend to create more people living at once. However, it does not actually result in more people born per capita; if anything it is a result of developed nations that have low birth rates. For example, the Japanese have very high life expectancy, but have far-below-replacement levels of reproduction.

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Again, less labor and more time and energy may lead to more procreation and that problem of overpopulation. Also the energy production has negative impacts on the environment and thus society.


I do not see how more labor saving devices lead to additional procreation, unless it's implied that dishwashers give to much free time to homeowners, thus dishwashers are the root cause of baby making. Dang, that was pretty weird logic, perhaps I should become a politician. "Dishwashers cause overpopulation; please vote for me!"
Energy production does have a negative impact on the environment. And especially in America, our refrigerators are at least 3 times larger than anyone else's, and we have a tendency to drive huge vehicle when we do not need to. However, what if it was all solar, etc. with only a marginal amount of fossil fuel used? I think we would be OK at that point, but we are not approaching it fast enough.

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The removal of natural population controls and thus a factor for overpopulation.


I'm not sure what Dingo exactly meant in the previous quote. I'm assuming he meant concentration of surplus knowledge that ordinarily would not have existed.
Again, the humanitarian in me dictates that even though more people will be left alive to damage the earth, people are inherently more important than anything else, therefore eradication of, say, Ebola should indeed be a top priority.

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Not necessary and uses that energy that was a concern abouve.


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Again, not necessary if that individual only needs to subsistence farm and hunt, which is the ultimate goal. Education leads to advancement and that is bad.


Advancement is bad only in that it results in a broadening of the mind that rarely is alright with subsistence. It is perfectly possible to be alright with subsistence, but it takes a very strong mind. Even in America, subsistence is usually better than in other, less developed nations such as India. However, it is not an ideal way of living, and no one should be forced into it, despite that fact that I believe it would solve everyone's problems overnight. However, education also results in better farming practices. The uneducated farmer clears land that shouldn't be cleared, does not know how to apply fertilizer properly, does not understand the chemicals mechanisms in the earth, and cannot comprehend such things as advanced medicine for animals.
On the flip side of that coin is over educated geneticists who want to make GMO pigs that have their stress genes removed, and inject them with hormones to reduce their male hormones. Now how if that going to be healthy? We just keep trying to force nature to do things completely unnatural, and at sometime or another this will backfire.

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I think that is the goal. Revert back to the "good old days" of mainly subsistence farming and not allow any new advancement because it will cause problems. It is a subjective view which is what the determination of advantage and disadvantage is in the final decision.


No body will return to subsistence unless forced to, thus, either we figure out a different solution, or elect a dictatorial government that will oppress everyone into subsistence. We would have war, then.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:08 am 
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o some this is a disadvantage as it is a factor in overpopulation.


Longer life expectancy does tend to create more people living at once. However, it does not actually result in more people born per capita; if anything it is a result of developed nations that have low birth rates. For example, the Japanese have very high life expectancy, but have far-below-replacement levels of reproduction.

Quote:
Again, less labor and more time and energy may lead to more procreation and that problem of overpopulation. Also the energy production has negative impacts on the environment and thus society.


I do not see how more labor saving devices lead to additional procreation, unless it's implied that dishwashers give to much free time to homeowners, thus dishwashers are the root cause of baby making. Dang, that was pretty weird logic, perhaps I should become a politician. "Dishwashers cause overpopulation; please vote for me!"
Energy production does have a negative impact on the environment. And especially in America, our refrigerators are at least 3 times larger than anyone else's, and we have a tendency to drive huge vehicle when we do not need to. However, what if it was all solar, etc. with only a marginal amount of fossil fuel used? I think we would be OK at that point, but we are not approaching it fast enough.

Quote:
The removal of natural population controls and thus a factor for overpopulation.


I'm not sure what Dingo exactly meant in the previous quote. I'm assuming he meant concentration of surplus knowledge that ordinarily would not have existed.
Again, the humanitarian in me dictates that even though more people will be left alive to damage the earth, people are inherently more important than anything else, therefore eradication of, say, Ebola should indeed be a top priority.

Quote:
Not necessary and uses that energy that was a concern abouve.


Quote:
Again, not necessary if that individual only needs to subsistence farm and hunt, which is the ultimate goal. Education leads to advancement and that is bad.


Advancement is bad only in that it results in a broadening of the mind that rarely is alright with subsistence. It is perfectly possible to be alright with subsistence, but it takes a very strong mind. Even in America, subsistence is usually better than in other, less developed nations such as India. However, it is not an ideal way of living, and no one should be forced into it, despite that fact that I believe it would solve everyone's problems overnight. However, education also results in better farming practices. The uneducated farmer clears land that shouldn't be cleared, does not know how to apply fertilizer properly, does not understand the chemicals mechanisms in the earth, and cannot comprehend such things as advanced medicine for animals.
On the flip side of that coin is over educated geneticists who want to make GMO pigs that have their stress genes removed, and inject them with hormones to reduce their male hormones. Now how if that going to be healthy? We just keep trying to force nature to do things completely unnatural, and at sometime or another this will backfire.

Quote:
I think that is the goal. Revert back to the "good old days" of mainly subsistence farming and not allow any new advancement because it will cause problems. It is a subjective view which is what the determination of advantage and disadvantage is in the final decision.


No body will return to subsistence unless forced to, thus, either we figure out a different solution, or elect a dictatorial government that will oppress everyone into subsistence. We would have war, then.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:13 pm 
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Nature already has the solution with mass die off. It is unfortunate that this time recovery is problematic, and extinction is most likely, but not just for the human causers, but most life or even all life on Earth. Much of it will be experienced in horror by people alive today.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:00 pm 
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And apparently now they are saying, or rather, at least one NASA scientist is saying, that CA only has 1 year of water left.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:21 pm 
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GREAT! Then more of the liberal asses will come to Colorado! They let their own state go with unlimited foreigners and their nits, and the red ink of their stupid programs that help them. The a-wipes changed Colorado from red to blue and now my vote doesn't really even count because of the electoral shenanigans.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:50 am 
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In the spirit of dialectics this fellow takes the opposite position of Sushi. His logic is somewhat like this, use coal and save the forests from use as an energy source. Use nuclear energy and you not only save the forests, you prevent global warming. So wilderness protection and sustainability is linked to high tech energy and concentrated agricultural practices.

http://bravenewclimate.com/2015/04/26/a ... #more-6645

Quote:
if humanity wants to preserve “wild nature” forever, it seems reasonable to argue that we must pursue policies and actions to reverse these drivers of global change. This argument has been a cornerstone of environmental advocacy for decades.

This view motivates concern for the “population bomb” and “limits to growth”, and underpins ideas involving the transition of consumer societies to simpler, ecologically sustainable cooperatives.

In a newly released thesis, “An Ecomodernist Manifesto”, I join with 17 other leading environmental scholars to advocate for an alternative, technology-focused approach to conservation. We stress the need to embrace the decoupling of human development from environmental impacts, by seeking solutions that intensify activities such as agriculture and energy production in some areas and leave others alone.

These processes are central to economic modernisation, improved human welfare and environmental protection. Together they offer the prospect of allowing people to mitigate climate change, to spare nature and to alleviate global poverty.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:16 pm 
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Well, we already went over how it would take over 30 years to make a dent with Gen IV nuclear.
I had argued with Sushi that industrialization started a thousand years ago in China with water wheels to fulfill the demand of early overpopulation, in India, too, all wiped out by diseases and wars, but not enough, obviously.
He had it that industrialization destroys the mind and environment. I agreed with the environment to the point of methane turnover and death of the biosphere. As far as destroying the mind, I think overpopulation caused hostility, depression, and anxiety are really what is going on.
All these organizations trying to make a buck and deluded into thinking they can stop thermageddon, as if we had a lot more time than the less than a decade to even have a less than 50% chance of stopping it before the tundra self release point is reached.
The major overpopulation on a global scale was reached after the big time use of coal then oil and trapped methane in gas.
It would be nice if we could all just return to a simpler life with little travel and growing all your own food for total nutrition in the local area. That is the thing, total nutrition. The tendency is for IQ lowering mono-diets.
With the stupidity, greed, and over-breeding of humans, I guess they were bound to ruin the entire planetary biosphere when they discovered what should have struck them as evil---coal and oil.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:29 pm 
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Sushi, let us know if you are still an environmental activist, or have been muzzled by the Indian government.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/14052 ... -327530301

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“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:41 am 
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OVER 256,700 HITS!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> O:) O:) O:) O:) O:) O:) 8-[ :shock: :lol: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :-
Sushi is still here;
"Endless debate is happening today because of the invention of printing press, radio, television and internet.........There was very little debate in pre-industrial society........There was only face-to-face discussion and that too was very limited because pre-industrial society spent most of its time and energy doing hard physical work whole day.

industrial society will debate itself to destruction.......It will keep debating even in the last moments of its existence.


As far as right to free speech or hundreds of other rights are concerned, it is yet another lunacy of industrial society........It is ridiculous when industrial society talks about rights after taking away all the rights of millions of other species.

Industrial society has snatched away everything that belonged to millions of other species........their habitats, their source of food and water. ........Millions of species have been tortured, slaughtered and decimated.

Industrial man wants hundreds of rights for himself when millions of other species don't even have the right to live and exist.


This planet is home to millions of species not just man alone.
Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food.
Industrial man has destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

It is crystal clear that industrial man has destroyed exponential extra environment for thousands of consumer goods and services."
You will never get Milton to admit it before the 52GT tundra methane releases coming as the initial pulse 2025-8. Then he will just run away and die.
Good riddance.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:33 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Sushi, let us know if you are still an environmental activist, or have been muzzled by the Indian government.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/14052 ... -327530301

Millions of people like me call themselves environmental activists but the reality is that environment is not saved by environmental activists.

Industrial society has environmental activists but no environment.
Pre-industrial society had environment but no environmental activists.

For millions of years before industrialization, environment was not saved by environmental activists, environmental organizations, money, technology, discussion, debate or argument. ........It was saved by the absence of industry.

Industry destroys environment.
Absence of industry saves environment.

Industrial society is a lunatic society which is trying to solve problems which have been created by industrialization itself.

Millions of people are trying to cure cancer.........Millions of people are trying to cure obesity........Millions of people are working for peace organizations trying to make the world peaceful.

Industrial society can never cure cancer because it is the cause of cancer.........Industrial society has contaminated the air, water and soil with millions of tonnes of industrial carcinogens which has led to exponential rise in cancer.

The cause of obesity is industrialization........In pre-industrial society people could eat only when food was cooked at home........In industrial society people are eating all the time because millions of tonnes of ready-made food is available in shops and homes 24x7, 365 days of the year.

How can peace organizations ever make the world peaceful when the Weapon Industry is producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons that have fuelled war, violence and terrorism all over the world???

In pre-industrial society almost the entire population was producing food.........In industrial society 50% of population (urban) is not producing food........This urban population has created thousands of extra, unnecessary and destructive professions to keep itself occupied.........Trying to solve all the problems of industrial society is one such profession / activity.......Millions of jobs have been created in the name of solving the problems of industrial society.

The solution will of course never come because industrialization itself is the cause of problems.........Millions of urban people are happy because they are getting jobs and salaries........Governments are happy because they can claim millions of people are trying to solve the problems and the solutions will come soon.

Meanwhile the problems continue growing bigger and bigger.

All problems of industrial society are unsolvable because industrialization itself is the cause of problems...........Problems of industrial society can go away only when industrial society goes away.
.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:33 am 
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A lot of what Sushi says rings true, on the other hand industrial society concentrated wealth that furthered the possibility of education and research so we have a more sophisticated understanding of our surroundings and do things like wipe out devastating diseases like smallpox and polio and diminish others like measles. I remember as a young man seeing older men with large goiters from lack of iodine. Mandated iodine in the salt ended that - an industrial solution don't you know.

There are trade offs. Nevertheless I think the modern industrial state has too many negatives built in to be sustainable. In some fashion or another we need to restore sustainable communities, which does not preclude small industries.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:34 am 
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What could have been is nice. Ecovillages, one child, local food with complete anti-oxidant/anti-cancer diet, very low emissions, soil replenishment through community composting, low water use/water recycling, solar/wind/or other non-emissions power like Gen 4. Sustainability was achievable.
Industrialization was the result of using fossil fuels, and pushed the stimulus for exponential population rise. Technology with weapons and medicine took away natural predators and some religious ways of thinking lowered mortality. The economic systems became growth only by stealing savings and spending them. The intelligence and quality of people began going down with low IQ and criminal overbreeding, along with negatively selective self predation of wars. Overpopulation demands increased industrialization and its pollution to the point of eco-collapse on a global scale, including fatal thermal effects ending in extinction.
All this happening because not enough was done in time by a dumbed down, lazy, lustful majority of humans . People 'sat on the fence' for far too long. :x :x :x :x :shock: ](*,) [-X 8-[ :cry: :-& :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:37 am 
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Industry is killing environment........Instead of stopping industry, people have engaged in endless debate for many decades on how to save environment .......Height of insanity........When your house is on fire what do you do........Do you rush to extinguish the fire or do you engage in endless debate on how the house can be saved???

Keep a balance between industry and environment.......height of insanity.

When your house is on fire do you keep a balance between fire and house???

You cannot keep a balance between two things when one of them destroys the other.
.


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