EnviroLink Forum

The author is at facebook more. I was kicked of for 30 days for the "unusual activity" of deleting half my timeline posts for brevity. It is the growth only economy started, with unlimited low IQ overbreeder immigration, that should have been replaced right away with environmental steady state economics, and population reduction to long term sustainable without harm to the biosphere. It was the fossil fueled industrial revolution that started not only the population skyrocket, but the beginning of global warming toward a Methane Turnover Event. Too bad so much time was pissed away when the population could have been reduced less drastically and the emissions driving the present heat would not have been made, the industrialization replaced with local small manufacturing and local agriculture, with villages and no huge cities. Power replaced with non-emissions and Gen 4, fossil fuels left in the ground. Now a cooling event is needed, and a population bottleneck. Either way is not pleasant, but an ELE with many millions of years recovery is worse.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

I quit facebook.

When I found out FB was reading posts, tabulating likes and dislikes and using that data to send out fraud "news" (I don't dilute it by calling it fake news) to throw a US election I decided to wipe my data and get out of there.

Those are not my values, and by letting FB sell my data I was in effect aiding and abetting election rigging. Now I don't care if they were rigging it for the candidate I favored or was opposed to, I cannot in good conscience be a part of that.

I know there are people on there who are trying to convince others about the right way to think, but I was completely unsuccessful at that.

So when that Cambridge Analytica thing was exposed, I said "Bye Bye".

I fear we are doomed.

I had two children when there were 3 billion on the planet and joined Zero Population Growth (ZPG) and when enough people joined and it started to work, just about every TV show, radio show, and movie had a woman saying "My biological clock is ticking" meaning she needed to have more children before menopause.

Now we are approaching 8 billion and corporate greed just wants perpetual growth until the planet is destroyed.

I'm thinking capitalism is a bad idea, but I am not smart enough to know how to fix it or what to replace it with.

So I'll continue to keep my 1/2 acre full of dozens of trees, produce only about a square foot of garbage per week, keep my roof white, refuse to run the air conditioner, drive like I'm in the historic Mobil Economy Run to get 100 extra miles per tankful, and do everything I can do to lessen my impact on the planet. And my neighbor has a giant diesel truck which idles for hours in his yard, waters a lawn, has two huge bins of trash per week, and keeps his house at about 68 degrees while he believes everything Fox tells him.

I think I'm seeing the beginning of the end, and when my grandchildren suffer, I will have done my best for them.

Bob :(

.......
Millions in this world have died for trivial reasons.
Millions in this world have killed for trivial reasons.

Millions in this world have died and killed for Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions.

When it comes to environment, the most important thing on earth (without which Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions will not even exist) people are quite content to just engage in billions of pages of discussion, debate and argument, which is not saving an iota of environment.

The planet is dying.....It is gasping for last breath.

Radical Actions are needed.

Drastic measures are needed.

Industrial Activity must be stopped.

By any means, By all means.

Right Now.

A few years later would be too late.
.
.

This planet is very small........Just 40,000 km in circumference.

Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food.

Forest man destroyed environment only for food.

Agrarian man destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter PLUS thousands of consumer goods and services.

Industrial man has destroyed Exponential Extra Environment.

EXPONENTIAL EXTRA ENVIRONMENT.

It is the urban population of industrial society that has destroyed exponential extra environment.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because industrialization has increased human population to over 7 billion from 1 billion in 1800 AD.

The collective work of human society must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.........Millions of other species only get food from earth.

Give free food to the urban population but immediately stop urban work for production of thousands of consumer goods........A fraction of world population is already producing food for entire population.
.
.

Urban jobs and professions have destroyed the planet.
The entire urban population of industrial society is criminal.
The crime goes unchecked because 50% of world population is now urban.
The crime goes unchecked because urban population is running the system.
..

IMO All the current environmental (and most other) problems can be traced to this: Too many people had too many babies and too many people are continuing to have too many babies.

But of course, that's what capitalism/corporationalism wants. The stock needs to grow and grow and grow. More widgets must be sold quarter after quarter or the stock will fall and the stockholders will jump ship. A perpetually increasing population solves a big part of that problem. More customers mean more sales.

But the earth is a finite, closed system, and we like an algae bloom in a pond are starting to kill our host 'pond'.

Global solutions are needed, but since the corporations are global and since those corporations essentially run different governments that they keep fighting among themselves, it seems to me that nothing can be done.

Communism didn't work either. There must be something in-between but I have no idea what that might be. Someone smarter than myself about such things might be able to come up with a solution.

Just thinking out loud here... ... ... ...

We need to limit population to one child per couple. After the first child, DNA check and sterilize both parents.

Break up the monopolistic corporations to small, competing entities.

Any new stock must be only to someone who physically works for the corporation. This solves the perpetual growth problem. No freeloaders (non participating stockholders) expecting more and more and more profits quarter after quarter after quarter.

Get corporations out of governments.

Huge fines for cutting down trees. No new development on either undeveloped, agriculture, or park lands. If it doesn't have a building on it, you can't clear and build. Tear down the old to build new.

Move people to cities, and turn the suburbs back to woodlands and/or farmlands.

I could go on and on and on but none of this will happen in my lifetime if it happens at all.

It's not about saving the earth, the earth will go on, it's about saving our species - saving our own asses to be blunt.

Bob

Human species is not the only species on earth.......There are millions of other species on earth.......The combined population of millions of other species was millions of times greater than the current human population (before they were decimated by industrial society), yet they did not destroy environment in millions of years.

What has destroyed environment is this.

Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food.

Industrial man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter PLUS thousands of consumer goods and services.

Production of thousands of consumer goods and services has destroyed this planet in just hundred years.
.

True, but the earth will only support so much life. So the more humans are born, the less resources for other life has, including our food species.

When I was a kid, my father used to breed tropical fish. He had many huge aquariums. They would only support so much life, like the earth, but on a smaller scale. When one species reproduced too vigorously, others would die out. Thinning of the tanks were necessary for all to survive.

IMHO We need to voluntarily thin the human population on this planet.

And yes, because we are overpopulated, we need to stop spending money on unnecessary consumer goods as well.

Bob

........
Elections are the biggest fraud of industrial society.......Changing governments doesn't change anything........The Industrial system is run by the urban population........Urban population remains the same before and after elections.......All evil corporations, institutions and organizations keep running the same way before and after elections.

All industrial governments are the same........All industrial governments are equally harmful, destructive and evil.

Industrial governments have destroyed this planet with industrial activity in hundred years.

You have to stop industrial governments not vote them back to power again and again through elections.

A gunman is killing hundreds of people in an act of mass shooting........You have to stop the shooting........You have to stop the shooter.......You cannot save the victims by replacing a Democrat Gunman with a Republican or Green Gunman.
.
.

Industrial governments have destroyed forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere.......Industrial governments have decimated millions of land and marine species.

You have to stop industrial governments........You have to eradicate, abolish, dismantle industrial society.

Voting is not your right........Voting is your crime.

A brakeless car is heading towards a cliff.......Instead of stopping the car the passengers are fighting over who would drive the car for the next four years.

The planet is dying and gasping for last breath.......Instead of eradicating, abolishing, dismantling industrial society people are busy holding elections for industrial governments.
.
.

Industrial governments are governments of urban people, by urban people, for urban people.......Urban people run corporations........Industrial governments are governments of corporations, by corporations, for corporations.

Urban jobs and professions have destroyed the planet.
The entire urban population of industrial society is criminal.
The crime goes unchecked because 50% of world population is now urban.
The crime goes unchecked because urban population is running the system.

For hundred years the urban population of industrial society has been fooling the non-urban population with figures and terminologies.......Progress, Development, Growth Rate, Economy Rate, GDP.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of Urban Jobs, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.

Until someone finds a solution, I choose to vote for the lesser of the two evil candidates.

Sad, but true.

.............
Humans call some animals man-eaters........Humans are planet-eaters.......Humans are species-eaters........Humans have decimated and devoured millions of land and marine species.......Humans have gobbled up forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere.

Every year Sharks kill about four humans.......Every year Man kills 40 million Sharks.......And then man says Sharks are dangerous.
.
.

This planet has been destroyed by Mining Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Electricity Industry, Oil Industry, Automobile and Rail Industry, Airline and Shipping Industry, Meat and Fishing Industry.

All industrial activity is interlinked and interdependent.........Every industry promotes other industries.........All industrial activity has collectively destroyed the planet.

Hundred years of industrial activity has destroyed what was created by nature in millions of years.

Industrialization = Destruction of forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere.
Industrialization = Torture, slaughter and decimation of millions of species.
Industrialization = Billions of tonnes of plastic waste and chemical waste.
Industrialization = Billions of tonnes of gaseous waste and ewaste.
Industrialization = Killing of billions of acres of fertile soil with cement & concrete.
Industrialization = Butchering of trillions of animals in slaughter houses.
Industrialization = Poisoning of planet with nuclear waste for 50,000 years.
Industrialization = Decimation of fish in the oceans by industrial fishing.
Industrialization = Acidification and warming of the oceans.
Industrialization = Oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans.
.
.

"Food Searching Species" did not destroy environment in millions of years........"Food Producing Society" destroyed very little environment in 10,000 years........"Consumer Goods Producing Society" has destroyed the planet in just 100 years.

Urban jobs and professions have destroyed the planet.
The entire urban population of industrial society is criminal.
The crime goes unchecked because 50% of world population is now urban.
The crime goes unchecked because urban population is running the system.

For hundred years the urban population of industrial society has been fooling the non-urban population with figures and terminologies.......Progress, Development, Growth Rate, Economy Rate, GDP.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of Urban Jobs, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.
.
.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.
Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.
Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

...........
Keep a balance between industry and environment ???

When your house catches fire can you save it by keeping a balance between house and fire???

You cannot keep a balance between two things when one of them destroys the other.

The term "sustainable development" is an oxymoron like the term "peaceful war".
.
.

Bring this Technology.....Bring that Technology.
Bring this Technology.....Bring that Technology.

Industrial Society trying to save environment, not by stopping Industrial Activity but by changing Industrial Technology is like the Police trying to save the victims of Mass Shooting not by stopping the shooting but by changing the Gun of the Shooter.

Technology has destroyed this planet in hundred years.......It was the absence of industrial technology that saved environment for millions of years before industrialization.

Trying to save environment with technology is like trying to stop fire with petrol.
.

Corporationalism the excessive form of capitalism has destroyed the planet.

I run two small businesses. In my small businesses, all I have to do is to sell enough products in the first business or services in the second, to pay the employees and myself a living wage. Everybody who makes money in the businesses, works in the business.

A corporation on the other hand is owned usually 49% by stockholders who do not work for the company. They put their money in stocks and expect perpetual profits, or else they bail out.

Unlike a small business, the corporation has to show more profits each and every quarter, so the corporation has to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow and grow in perpetuity. Of course this is a closed system so it can't grow forever.

So what is the corporation to do? A few things come to mind (in no particular order). Feel free to add your own.

• Make products that have a short life before needing replacement. There is no incentive to sell you something that isn't going to end up in the landfill or the ocean soon.
• Make the products disposable at the end of their life. If it can be repaired, there is no reason to buy a new one soon enough to keep the stocks growing.
• For major purchases like cars that have a shelf life of a few years, put in all kinds of 'whistles and bells' to break and need parts. Give these parts a shorter shelf life so the end user has to buy another part. Do we need half the gadgets on our cars? Power door locks? Push button on the fob door or trunk openers/closers? Power windows? (Is that crank that hard to turn). And so on.
• Make repair parts that are disposable. Air cleaners that can't be cleaned, a disposable water filter that can't be cleaned on my house water well, toner that can't be refilled on my laser printer without buying a new drum and mechanism, vacuum bags that need to be replaced instead of dumped out and reused like my parents did, and so on.
• Get government subsidies, price supports, tax breaks, and anything else to keep the prices up and put the tax burden on the consumer
• Get the government to buy the excess production and charge the taxpayer
• Have a perpetual war so the taxpayer has to buy bullets, missiles, bombs and other gear that can only be used once and then needs to be replaced (We've been constantly in war since WWII - Korea, Nam, Gulf, Afghan, ISIS, etc.). We the people buy a lot of bullets and bombs.
• Create artificial shopping holidays, Black Friday, Cyber Monday, Prime Day, Cyber Monday, and so on
• Sell packaging. At one time you returned the milk, beer, soda and other bottles, collected the deposit, and bought another. Now every time you buy a bottle of milk, soda, beer or whatever, you buy a plastic bottle. You pay for that bottle. You don't need that bottle you bought, so it's trashed or put in a recycle bin, which MIGHT get it recycled if it's in the lucky minority.
• For computers, software, and phones, perpetual updates. Do we really need to upgrade every year? And when people finally figured that out they went with subscriptions or give it free and use it to spy on you and sell to advertisers (like Google, Microsoft and Apple).
• Increase population - the more customers we have, the more widgets we can sell and until the population boom crashes, we can grow and grow and grow and grow. But how? One example: Back in the 1960s we had a big zero population growth (ZPG) movement. It was working and that worried the big corporations so they used the media. Almost every advertisement, ever woman in a situation comedy, every woman in a drama started telling their husbands, "My biological clock is ticking" meaning they better have a baby or another baby. An instead of one or two babies, they had 3 or4 because they forgot all about ZPG and babies were in style. That's back when there were fewer than 3 billion people on the planet.

When I worked as an engineer for a manufacturer of Cable TV equipment, the General Manager told us that every business was looking for a Chiclets item. Like the gum, to be chewed up, disposed of quickly, and replaced. He asked us all for suggestions and would give a reward if we could come up with something. It didn't work for CATV gear.

I don't think the technology in itself is killing us. The greed and need for perpetual growth drives technology to generate profits instead of improving our lives.

The urge to grow and grow and grow makes us like an algae bloom in a pond. The Earth is our pond, and our reproduction and consumption rate is slower, but we are presently headed to the same end.

At least I think that is the major part of our problems today.

Karl Marx was right about capitalism, he was just completely wrong about his solution (it wasn't any better and in many cases worse).

Bob

.........
You can never escape from chaos, madness and destruction once you have created extra jobs and professions.........Industrial society has done just that........Industrial society has created hundreds of extra and destructive professions for its urban population which is not producing food which was the main occupation for thousands of years before industrialization.

For millions of years there was just one main activity / occupation on earth - "Searching for Food" / "Producing Food"..........Urban population of industrial society is the anomaly that is producing consumer goods and services.

For millions of years, both adults and the offspring of millions of animal species "searched for food".

For 1 million years in hunter_gatherer society both adults and children "searched for food".

For 10,000 years in agrarian society, most of the adults and children "produced food"

In industrial society which has only existed for 100 years, urban adults are producing consumer goods and services in industries and corporations..........Their children go to schools and universities where they learn how to produce and sell consumer goods in future.
.
.

What would happen to your home if 1000 people entered and started working non-stop, picking up all the things lying in your home, breaking them up to produce new things out of them?

Your home will get ruined in one day.

This is exactly what has happened to the planet in the last 100 years.......Billions of urban people worked non-stop in millions of industries and corporations producing thousands of consumer goods which has led to the destruction of forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere........It has led to the decimation of millions of land and marine species.
.
.

"Food Searching Species" did not destroy environment in millions of years........"Food Producing Society" destroyed very little environment in 10,000 years........"Consumer Goods Producing Society" has destroyed the planet in just 100 years.

Only food searching societies and food producing societies were sustainable on earth.

Living in industrial society was not even an option.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.
Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.
.

Agriculture and industry enabled overpopulation.

Too many people having too many babies IS most of the problem.

i dont know what they are waiting for, we have no more time, by shutting down cities and all industrial farming and fishing, we can start with a small chance to restore this earth in hundreds of years, and begin fixing the problem now. I believe if every country gives the reigns over to the ecologists and environmental leaders, implementing new laws and a new system, we can possibly take control of this.

What! And get in the way of corporate greed?

The billionaires don't care if humans become extinct in 100 years, after all, they'll be gone by then. It's all about instant gratification and a 'pissing contest' to see which guy can be the top of the heap next year.

BTW, are you running your Air Conditioner in the summer? If so, you have nothing to say as almost half the energy generated in the USA goes to power air conditioners while the output of hot air from these beasts warm the planet even more.

Notes