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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:07 am 
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sushilydv wrote:
Destroy the system that has killed all ecosystems.

Destroy the society that plunders, exploits and kills earth 365 days of the year and then celebrates Earth Day.


Mind if I just call you sushi? (the 'lydv' is not particularly user-friendly).

I have read your input on this particular thread and find your discussion intelligent and reasonable - although I might not agree with all - For instance, the idea that destroying what is in order to heal, or come up with something new, is far too drastic a measure IMO . We cannot destroy the system or the society without destroying ourselves. The "society" and the "system" are of our own creation. Society, for instance, is not a separate entity which resides outside of ourselves. We are, in fact, society. That means you and me - and everyone else. One by one, individual by individual, we make up that which we call 'society'. I don't want to destroy it - I feel no need to destroy it, but I would like to transform it. I think you might be interested in transforming it too based on the concerns and the issues you have emphasized in your posts.

And yes, I agree with you that the idea of moving all (almost) 7 billion of us onto another planet is ridiculous. I never really took it seriously and I doubt many people do or did. At best, it is an elitist scheme if it could ever be done. Also, and I think MOST importantly, it is an evasion of the reality we must deal with here on Earth. I think it important to get to the root causes rather than applying bandages - scientific, technological, religious, superstitious, - bandanges that address the effects but not the causes. I am quite interested in getting to pay-dirt here. Grizzly, on the other hand, is probably more interested in where to apply the bandage. It is always interesting to hear from him too.

We are in this together. We are the species that self-reflects. The burden seems to be upon us.

This has nothing to do with anything you have written on this thread, but I would like to add that being OF a nationality is of no use. "Nationality", "citizenship", is of no importance and must be seen for its old world significance - In light of the challenges which face every single being on this planet, these concepts can be seen as mere mental constructs (if one is willing and able to let go of these constructs). One cannot perceive the borders which people have created from outer-space. We are all living on a planet regardless of citizenship, race, religion - all of these things are man made and the planet has nothing to do with our inventions. Religion, nationality - thoughtfulness will throw these concepts into light and reveal that they are a dream - some would say a nightmare and it definitely is a nightmare for many.

Anyway, much of my response is not directly related to your post and yet I would be interested to read your views.

~~ A. Friendly


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:48 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Quote:
sushilydv wrote:
Destroy the system that has killed all ecosystems.

Destroy the society that plunders, exploits and kills earth 365 days of the year and then celebrates Earth Day.

I don't want to destroy it - but I would like to transform it. I think you might be interested in transforming it too based on the concerns and the issues you have emphasized in your posts.

I would like to add that being OF a nationality is of no use. "Nationality", "citizenship", is of no importance and must be seen for its old world significance - In light of the challenges which face every single being on this planet, these concepts can be seen as mere mental constructs (if one is willing and able to let go of these constructs). One cannot perceive the borders which people have created from outer-space. We are all living on a planet regardless of citizenship, race, religion - all of these things are man made and the planet has nothing to do with our inventions. Religion, nationality - thoughtfulness will throw these concepts into light and reveal that they are a dream - some would say a nightmare and it definitely is a nightmare for many.


animal friendly,

Yes, the present society needs to be changed/ transformed very urgently - radical transformation is needed.

We have limited resources/ ecosystems on earth which is just 40,000 km in circumference.

If we destroy ecosystems for fewer things [food, clothing, shelter] the ecosystems will last longer.

If we destroy ecosystems for more things [consumer goods] the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

The fewer things we make the more sustainable we are.


You are right about the issue of nation/ nationality. The human race is collectively destroying the ecosystems. The issue of particular countries came up in some of the comments on this thread - but I did not mention any country by name in my article - the first post of thread. I have used the term "Industrial Society" in my article which refers to all countries - America, Europe, India, China - and all other countries of the world - since the entire world is becoming industrialized.

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Last edited by sushilydv on Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:10 am 
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I am quite interested in getting to pay-dirt here. Grizzly, on the other hand, is probably more interested in where to apply the bandage.


I'm not quite sure what you're talking about when you say "where to put the bandage". I'm interested in pragmatic, workable, realistic solutions to problems. And sushi has offered no realistic solutions to the problem he is complaining about. He laments technology and industrialization. However, technology and industry are here to stay. This genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago, and it isn't going back in. Same with consumerism. Like it or not, consumerism drives the world economy, provides jobs for people worldwide, and advances technology. Since neither of these two are going to go away, and we are not going to be going to be going back to a caveman-type lifestyle, the question then becomes, "how do we minimize our mark upon the earth"? I believe the answer lies in the very thing that sushi seems to hate: science and technology. For example, a while back I posted a link to an article about a new "superlaser" that can get hot enough to reach the ignition point of the fusion reaction. It might have the potential to be a source of boundless, clean energy that could power our lives while greatly reducing our environmental impact. Like I said, I am not interested in "transforming society" or social engineering. I'm interested in viable solutions that would allow people to retain the standard of living they enjoy while minimizing our impact. I'm optimistic that it can be done. Sushi, on the other hand, seems to only want to complain and offers no ideas or realistic solutions to the problems he sees. I don't find complaining without actually thinking about viable solutions to the problem to be particularly enlightened thinking.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:38 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
In India, millions use the ground as a toilet, which rains wash into rivers, making them full of harmful bacteria which kills thousands daily. That is a lack of composting toilets, which are a technical invention. Millions do not use birth control there either, which is another technical invention. Miss-use of technology, over-breeding, over-tolerance, and over-compassion have been a big part of the drive of overpopulation and its demands which have ruined the biosphere.
It is not just industrial society that destroys itself. If industry used resources at their regeneration rate, recharge rate, and polluted at or below the planetary absorption rate---it would have stayed a positive thing.
It was miss-used with greed, and the demands of people who wanted irrigation water and clean drinking water, better heath care, then faster travel, electric lights, then electric devices, and powerful machinery to extract more resources without regard to the future or the depletion and pollution.
India, China, and Europe were all overpopulated before the industrial revolution and got worse after. Societies where people had become crowd tolerant and too compassionate and over-tolerant, already had the seeds of their own destruction in their minds. It allowed overpopulation to start its deadly course. The demands of this also started human inventiveness to start the industrial revolution which increased overpopulation, depletion, and pollution.
So human overcrowding was the start which led to inbred tolerance which was the genetic mental destruction that led to environmental destruction through numbers and industry. The original genetic makeup of humans had crowd intolerance for ecological reasons of survival developed over millions of years(it also kept diseases from affecting the whole population). When people got crowded they would either migrate or fight to the death over territory and resources, thus reducing population and crowding. They stayed in smaller village and tribal groups. Self predation was an evolutionary trait when predation by other animals, and disease wasn't enough to keep in ecological carrying capacity of a region, after the technology of spears was developed, making humans the top predator. Crowd intolerance developed in our evolution for ecological carrying capacity reasons, also, along with diseases would spread easier in crowded conditions.
What could have made it so people crowded together and stayed without migration and warfare to reduce population? I can only guess that it was a primitive religion that taught over-tolerance and over-compassion, and gave people peace when they should have felt the need to leave the crowd or make war. Crowds also led to famine and disease, which should have been seen by intelligent people as signs that crowding was not right. Unfortunately, the average people were just not quite intelligent enough, and crowding continued in many societies. Self predation was not great enough to prevent the overpopulation and further crowding which built slowly at first and accelerated with fossil fuels and the industrial revolution which feeds the madness that was started with over-tolerance, over-compassion, over-breeding, and the genetic change to crowd tolerance with peaceful religions and inventiveness to over-use the environment.

I never got a response from our Indian friend about this. I live totally on solar not too far from Grizzly, compost, built with real he-man rammed earth tires, but the biggest thing I did, which took a lot of being careful, was to have only one child at the age of 39. Our illegal invaders (unenforced Constitution, laws, and border) have 20 kids and grandkids by that age(from "the Bell Curve" 80 IQ, and documented dumbed down educational system), which has been the ruin of a once great country 45 years ago. Technology developed my solar panels and the birth control pills. Over-consumerism is the obesity of many while an equal amount are far under-nourished (http://worldometers.info). The greed and profiteering are worse than than any technology, and industries can clean up and go with alternative power, for the most part. Greed can only be controlled with geometric income taxes and a renewed spiritual health. Population quality and quantity control is a necessity that probably will not happen until after the crash of the 2040s to 60s, if there are any survivors of intelligence and the biosphere is still livable for humans and their support species.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:10 am 
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Sounds more like deteriorating minds...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,528780,00.html

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:51 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
In India, millions use the ground as a toilet, which rains wash into rivers, making them full of harmful bacteria which kills thousands daily. That is a lack of composting toilets, which are a technical invention. Millions do not use birth control there either, which is another technical invention. Miss-use of technology, over-breeding, over-tolerance, and over-compassion have been a big part of the drive of overpopulation and its demands which have ruined the biosphere.
It is not just industrial society that destroys itself. If industry used resources at their regeneration rate, recharge rate, and polluted at or below the planetary absorption rate---it would have stayed a positive thing.
It was miss-used with greed, and the demands of people who wanted irrigation water and clean drinking water, better heath care, then faster travel, electric lights, then electric devices, and powerful machinery to extract more resources without regard to the future or the depletion and pollution.
India, China, and Europe were all overpopulated before the industrial revolution and got worse after. Societies where people had become crowd tolerant and too compassionate and over-tolerant, already had the seeds of their own destruction in their minds. It allowed overpopulation to start its deadly course. The demands of this also started human inventiveness to start the industrial revolution which increased overpopulation, depletion, and pollution.
So human overcrowding was the start which led to inbred tolerance which was the genetic mental destruction that led to environmental destruction through numbers and industry. The original genetic makeup of humans had crowd intolerance for ecological reasons of survival developed over millions of years(it also kept diseases from affecting the whole population). When people got crowded they would either migrate or fight to the death over territory and resources, thus reducing population and crowding. They stayed in smaller village and tribal groups. Self predation was an evolutionary trait when predation by other animals, and disease wasn't enough to keep in ecological carrying capacity of a region, after the technology of spears was developed, making humans the top predator. Crowd intolerance developed in our evolution for ecological carrying capacity reasons, also, along with diseases would spread easier in crowded conditions.
What could have made it so people crowded together and stayed without migration and warfare to reduce population? I can only guess that it was a primitive religion that taught over-tolerance and over-compassion, and gave people peace when they should have felt the need to leave the crowd or make war. Crowds also led to famine and disease, which should have been seen by intelligent people as signs that crowding was not right. Unfortunately, the average people were just not quite intelligent enough, and crowding continued in many societies. Self predation was not great enough to prevent the overpopulation and further crowding which built slowly at first and accelerated with fossil fuels and the industrial revolution which feeds the madness that was started with over-tolerance, over-compassion, over-breeding, and the genetic change to crowd tolerance with peaceful religions and inventiveness to over-use the environment.

I never got a response from our Indian friend about this. I live totally on solar not too far from Grizzly, compost, built with real he-man rammed earth tires, but the biggest thing I did, which took a lot of being careful, was to have only one child at the age of 39. Our illegal invaders (unenforced Constitution, laws, and border) have 20 kids and grandkids by that age(from "the Bell Curve" 80 IQ, and documented dumbed down educational system), which has been the ruin of a once great country 45 years ago. Technology developed my solar panels and the birth control pills. Over-consumerism is the obesity of many while an equal amount are far under-nourished (http://worldometers.info). The greed and profiteering are worse than than any technology, and industries can clean up and go with alternative power, for the most part. Greed can only be controlled with geometric income taxes and a renewed spiritual health. Population quality and quantity control is a necessity that probably will not happen until after the crash of the 2040s to 60s, if there are any survivors of intelligence and the biosphere is still livable for humans and their support species.


Johhny Electriglide wrote:
I never got a response from our Indian friend about this.


What do I respond to, Johhny Electriglide? The above posts are garbled, disconnected, incomprehensible and incoherent.

You try to include too many topics in your post and there is hardly any continuity between your thoughts/ sentences.

Will someone else let me know what Johhny Electriglide is trying to say and what kind of response he expects from me. I have already posted my views on "overpopulation", "overconsumerism" and "technology".

sushilydv wrote:
The two things that have destroyed Ecosystems are - Overpopulation and Overconsumerism.

A lot of efforts have been made to control/ reduce population. In the absence of these efforts world population would be much greater than 6.5 billion today.

An equivalent example does not exist for Overconsumerism.

The world has not made efforts to reduce consumerism.

All countries have been increasing Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP in the last 50 years. The number of consumer goods in most homes has been increasing over the last 50 years.


Does Johhny Electriglide want to keep repeating the same issue again and again?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:04 am 
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Sushi, you (1)never acknowledge the fact that the mental aberration seeds of overpopulation and consumerism were in place with over-tolerance, greed, and over-compassion well before the industrial revolution. India, China, and parts of Africa were over-sustainable long term population even before the industrial Revolution gave it a kick upward to gross overpopulation.

(2)You never comment on the negative ecological genetic trait of crowd tolerance that happens when people are jammed together long enough. Destroyed minds through genetics.

(3)You never commented on the Human Overcrowding Syndrome, the inbred genetic positive trait, characterized by increased depression, anxiety, and hostility >>(or mind destruction, too). This trait came first and kept people in eco-balance.

(4)This is through another aspect you refuse to discuss, human self-predation through pre-history and history. This was after mastery of weapons to kill predators like saber tooth tigers, dire wolves, and many others.

>Predation through viruses and bacteria are also more prevalent in crowded places.
I fully agree that the over-crowded rat race forest and fossil fuel burning industrialism and over abundance of salesman pushing consumerism is all wrong.
I think it also has to do with environmental poisons from that industry, such as the methyl mercury on land and in fish from the air in coal plant fallout. It also is in the other brain damage from petro-chemicals of impure variety with heavy metals like lead, used on crops, and washing into rivers. Numerous insecticides and herbicides, the same plus carcinogenic, and getting down into ground water. Crowds of cars stalled in traffic produce carbon monoxide which also causes hostility. I'm sure you can agree with these facts(5).<

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
...I think it also has to do with environmental poisons...
also don't forget the horrible diet typical of western societies that is sorely lacking in many nutrients that are critical to proper brain function and development. I know that I have a case myself of being contaminated with something affecting my nervous system and doctors here (Canada) refuse to even consider the possibility of heavy metals or other persistent chemicals causing the tingling sensations and numbing that I have been suffering with for years now... I found solutions on the internet but without any help from doctors. People think I am strange that I do not drink or smoke nor have I ever used recreational drugs including weed... but I am sure that accounts for a high IQ in spite of my nerve-related problem (likely) from heavy metals.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:02 pm 
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genaman wrote:

I usually condense this topic into a vehicle running in a closed garage.


That is right. The way this society is running is like :

Raising a building - adding extra floors to a building by removing bricks from the lower floors.

The crash - the collapse - the end is coming. It is a matter of one or two decades at the most.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:34 am 
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sushilydv wrote:


The crash - the collapse - the end is coming. It is a matter of one or two decades at the most.


I agree, and you may be right about the two decades. English experts see a "Perfect Storm" coming in 2030, from well past peak oil effects, to more AGW effects, to water crises, and overpopulation crises. Fisheries decline and the ever increasing trash in the ocean and on the land, and mercury fallout from power and industry.
I would say India will probably be the first area to start crashing, followed by Africa and China. Then spreading from island nations to the Americas and Europe. Few areas will be spared in the long run. Everyone getting more insane as more effects hit them personally, giving rise to increased fighting, crime and cannibalism, along with massive eco-damage and collapses.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:22 am 
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Weather has become horrible in India - it is getting hotter - it has become irregular and unpredictable.

Summer temperatures are rising and winter season has become shorter and less cold than before.

Right now many parts of the country are facing drought. A few regions have been flooded.

Until 20 years ago summer mornings, evenings and nights used to be quite cool and pleasant. This is no longer the case now. It is hot all 24 hours.

Nature has lost its cooling ability. Rains in the monsoon season do not cool the city of Delhi anymore. It is hot, humid and suffocating even while it is raining.

Rain has cooling effect when it falls on Trees and uncovered earth. A large percentage of Delhi area is covered with cement and concrete. The heat from 7-8 million vehicles adds to temperature. Hundreds of thousands of air-conditioners further increase the outside temperature. There are thousands of big and small industries in and around Delhi which add to the heat. There is not much green cover outside Delhi since it is surrounded by smaller towns.

The combination of all these factors has made Delhi hot, humid and very uncomfortable.

Humans have destroyed the cooling ability of nature.

In a few years the world is going to become snow free/ ice free.

Agriculture is going to collapse worldwide due to change and irregularity of weather.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:38 am 
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sushilydv wrote:
Weather has become horrible in India - it is getting hotter - it has become irregular and unpredictable.

Summer temperatures are rising and winter season has become shorter and less cold than before.

Right now many parts of the country are facing drought. A few regions have been flooded.

Until 20 years ago summer mornings, evenings and nights used to be quite cool and pleasant. This is no longer the case now. It is hot all 24 hours.

Nature has lost its cooling ability. Rains in the monsoon season do not cool the city of Delhi anymore. It is hot, humid and suffocating even while it is raining.

Rain has cooling effect when it falls on Trees and uncovered earth. A large percentage of Delhi area is covered with cement and concrete. The heat from 7-8 million vehicles adds to temperature. Hundreds of thousands of air-conditioners further increase the outside temperature. There are thousands of big and small industries in and around Delhi which add to the heat. There is not much green cover outside Delhi since it is surrounded by smaller towns.

The combination of all these factors has made Delhi hot, humid and very uncomfortable.

Humans have destroyed the cooling ability of nature.

In a few years the world is going to become snow free/ ice free.

Agriculture is going to collapse worldwide due to change and irregularity of weather.

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Do you have any suggestions, sushidv? What should we do? We can see it coming ... inevitable maybe. So what shall we do? What is the essence of what we should do? It seems we are already a train-wreck ... there is already so much force, so much momentum in this destructive direction - everything from the way we educate our children to choosing work that is not destructive yet still pays for their education .... We seem to be caught in this destructive net and we don't know how to get out. You are the town-cryer. You are alerting people to the destructiveness of our actions which seems to need to be done because some are barely aware, but is there a solution?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:48 pm 
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There is no politically correct solution. People seem determined to let nature take its course. Nature does not care about political correctness. Earth and its biosphere don't need us. Life will go on.
The solution at this point is almost as bad as what nature has in store for the biosphere with continued human overpopulation, depletions, and pollution. There is only the possibility that it might work at all. Somewhere around 500 nuclear detonations over the 500 worst slums of the world, or enough to kill half the population and cause albedo change long enough to mitigate global warming enough to prevent mass extinctions. NOT politically correct, and very risky.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:00 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
There is no politically correct solution. People seem determined to let nature take its course. Nature does not care about political correctness. Earth and its biosphere don't need us. Life will go on.
The solution at this point is almost as bad as what nature has in store for the biosphere with continued human overpopulation, depletions, and pollution. There is only the possibility that it might work at all. Somewhere around 500 nuclear detonations over the 500 worst slums of the world, or enough to kill half the population and cause albedo change long enough to mitigate global warming enough to prevent mass extinctions. NOT politically correct, and very risky.



I don't see why the the nuclear detonations should go off over the 500 worst slums of the world ???? Why not set them off over New York, Chicago, Toronto, Paris, etc. - where people are polluting the most?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:50 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
There is no politically correct solution. People seem determined to let nature take its course. Nature does not care about political correctness. Earth and its biosphere don't need us. Life will go on.
The solution at this point is almost as bad as what nature has in store for the biosphere with continued human overpopulation, depletions, and pollution. There is only the possibility that it might work at all. Somewhere around 500 nuclear detonations over the 500 worst slums of the world, or enough to kill half the population and cause albedo change long enough to mitigate global warming enough to prevent mass extinctions. NOT politically correct, and very risky.



I don't see why the the nuclear detonations should go off over the 500 worst slums of the world ???? Why not set them off over New York, Chicago, Toronto, Paris, etc. - where people are polluting the most?

Who said that those cities don't have slums that would include them? All large cities have bad slums. Remember, this is NOT a viable solution anyway; there are none. Nature WILL take its course with the laws of biology and ecology. Ecocide prevails on a global level.

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