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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:06 am 
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Donnie Mac Leod wrote:
According to hunting ban polls 21 % of the population feel they should tell 77 % of the population how to live with regards to hunting. Hunting bans are not about animal health in herds & packs. They are about 21 % of the general population telling 77 % of the general population how to live. The truth is it is none of their business if I and the wolf are out hunting today. If we are enjoying our lives as we see fit the Anthony Marr's of this world should not be telling wolves or human hunters how to live. BTW, Anthony Marr in a debate on another forum was eventually cornered and had to admit that his Birth Control claims for controlling large tract deer herds were false and that I/C control would not work. I applaud his eventual honesty in that admission on that forum but I see he is still selling his snake oil to less informed audiences.


Can someone explain to us why hunting is "needed" is the deer population is not gone down as the result but has gone up?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:12 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
Ante Bozanich wrote:
Isaac Bashevis Singer are important because this is about human culture, ethics and sociology not biology. Tired old arguments, we've all heard thousands of times: "animals eating other animals" just don't cut it,


Regardless of what it is about or what cuts what, it's not an argument. It's the way it is.

Now, tell us again why it is wrong to eat animals? Try to convince others rather than yourself this time.



Because, well, Gary Francione and Roger Yates told me so! Animals are sentient, so they have rights, because sentience is the defining criterion for what is a rights-holding being. I mean, it's not like "sentience" is an arbitrary, vague, and immeasurable criterion, right? ( sarcasm fully intended :twisted: )

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:20 am 
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Ante Bozanich wrote:
And, since I've made a parallel between genocide of nonhuman animal individuals and Holocaust and compared those who murder them with Nazis, here are only couple of classic quotations from two Jewish geniuses:

1. Theodor W. Adorno, who, according to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy "was one of the most important philosophers and social critics in Germany after World War II wrote: "Auschwitz begins whenever someone looks at a slaughterhouse and thinks: they are only animals."

2. Isaac Bashevis Singer, one of the leading figures in the Yiddish literary movement, and recipient of the Nobel Prize in literature in 1978 wrote: "As often as Herman had witnessed the slaughter of animals and fish, he always had the same thought: in their behaviour toward creatures, all men were Nazis. The smugness with which man could do with other species as he pleased exemplified the most extreme racist theories, the principle that might is right."

Enough said!



Oooooh. An appeal to authority. Some pretty impressive reasoning, right there. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:53 am 
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CarolineTC wrote:
Ante Bozanich wrote:
"It is a moral issue for me to stand up against recreational and trophy hunting, and an emotional issue since I love the animals being hunted, and an intellectual issue on evolution by compassion, and a spiritual issue as to why I am here. Anti-hunting is one of my callings." ~ Anthony Marr, Founder and President

Join the group on Facebook which started few days ago and already has 1,147 members: Global Anti-Hunting Coalition (GAHC)



How can one "join the group" it the moderator does not post any of my comments? I have tried to post 4 already and not one showed up yet ??!!


All new users are moderated until they get a certain number of good posts approved by me. I'm the only moderator here, and if I don't pay attention to the forum for a day or two, then so be it. This is not a "job" it is a volunteer activity that I do. We do this to keep spammers out and to give valid new users some "training wheels" so they don't get banned on arrival by flaming some of our users.

If you want to continue this specific topic (about me being a lazy moderator), please only reply in the support forum.

-josh


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:41 pm 
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Deer populations are effected by number of factors: Including habatate disruption. We have a huge deer population in Iowa for one reason: thousands of acres of soybeans and corn fields.

If deer numbers weren't managed by citizen hunters(Still the least-costly method, not to mention it puts food on the table for thousands, including the homeless) deer would risk starvation or wander into nearby states....and eat what's avaible there.

Hunting works....that's why there's more deer nowadays then back abouts 1900.
When ARA's are able to raise as much money to protect animal-populations as hunters have; maybe the majority of the population will take them seriously.

Welcome abourd, Caroline. \:D/


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Don't forget folks that genuine hunters are the best people to watch out for diseases and other environmental problems, the same way that river fishermen are the first to notice river pollution and changes in fish population and health.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:57 pm 
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Thanx, J!

In at least some states; animals taken by hunters must be examined by game officials: it is a effective method for monitering the genral health of herd-game animals.

Guess who helps fund it? Yep: hunters....


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:51 pm 
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I take it not every one watched TV kids vacation dramas like Daktari (on CBS & BBC) at one point then? (maybe after some of the people here's time...?). TV shows like this can shape a person at a formative age. So my question is, what shapes a hunter and what shapes an ARP? What defines them in what they think that they are doing that is beneficial to nature and why do they think that their method is valid? How can a person look at a dead animal at their hand and feel OK and how can a person abhor the sight of it, never mind be responsible for it?

I am not trying to cause a fight BTW, this question is unbiased, as just trying to discover each origin out of sheer interest or nosiness, to understand the mentality and sociology behind or at the route of both sides. If both side are so seriously defending their corner then they surely have serious knowledge of their own origins on the matter...?


CL


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:38 pm 
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CatLady wrote:
I take it not every one watched TV kids vacation dramas like Daktari (on CBS & BBC) at one point then? (maybe after some of the people here's time...?). TV shows like this can shape a person at a formative age. So my question is, what shapes a hunter and what shapes an ARP? What defines them in what they think that they are doing that is beneficial to nature and why do they think that their method is valid? How can a person look at a dead animal at their hand and feel OK and how can a person abhor the sight of it, never mind be responsible for it?

I am not trying to cause a fight BTW, this question is unbiased, as just trying to discover each origin out of sheer interest or nosiness, to understand the mentality and sociology behind or at the route of both sides. If both side are so seriously defending their corner then they surely have serious knowledge of their own origins on the matter...?


CL


Stop basing your emotions on TV shows/dramas. ....and AR websites. A rational person would not base reality on a children's drama on TV......BTW Bambi was not real either.
Stick to reality.

You can dislike hunting or even animals being killed but hunting is the best most humane way of controlling populations, etc. For right now that is reality. Over populated animals are subject to illnesses, starvation, etc. Those fates are a hell of a lot worse than a quick clean death. And before you go off on contraceptions...those are harmful to other animals. You have to remember animals are part of a food chain. Drugs pass from one animal to another through ingestion etc. Then you have other animals that cannot reproduce causing their number to be too low and in the cases of endangered animals, it can push them further towards extinction...plus other adverse effects.

You say you have done rescues, then you should be aware animals die of very many reasons that have nothing to do with hunting or people and those deaths can be agonizing and to the animals. Those deaths can be drawn out over weeks. Are you OK with that kind of suffering??
What about the animals that are over populated eating beyond capacity effecting food supplies of other animals within the ecosystem causing them to starve as well??

There is no sociology behind any of it. There is however propaganda and lies and people that will do and say whatever they need to so that you will attack hunters.

Your life and almost every aspect of it has caused animal deaths, directly and indirectly, that is reality. And those deaths were not nearly as humane as hunters strive to make theirs.

People are all different, some can kill, some can't. (some can sing some can't, some can cook some can't, some can build some can't, etc) Some rely on those that can to do what they can't. If you rescue animals and you cannot kill then you ultimately rely on those that can....those same people that you vilify.

Are these issue about making you feel better or doing what is best for the animals?? Sometimes doing what is best for the animals just won't make you feel good at all. All you have said is about what YOU want, what YOU don't like, what YOU think.....you have yet to consider or think about what is best for the animals.


Last edited by animallover on Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Hi AL



Thanks for your response. I am guessing that you were not a big Daktari fan


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:04 pm 
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CatLady wrote:
Hi AL



Thanks for your response. I am guessing that you were not a big Daktari fan


Being a "fan" or not of a television program or a movie is irrelevant. However I am not surprised you didn't address anything that was said.

So which is it......
Are you trying to make "yourself" feel good or do you really care about the animals??
And can you deal with not feeling good, even feeling horrible, about something, if it ultimately is in benefit of the animals??
Are you cable of putting the animals welfare above your feelings??


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:17 am 
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I am going to be a cordial as possible (not easy with humans who find enjoyment out of destroying innocent sentient being). Listen to these people laugh after they shoot the deer and wait for the animals to die. Some do the "high fives", "smack down", calls deer a "stud" some about to vomit from pure excitement similar to how serial killers get their "excitement" of killing humans. One even "praise the lord" ( I don't know what lord he is praising but I know my lord would never tolerate pain and suffering on innocent sentient life especially in the name of sports and trophy.

The "bowshot deer dies in 30 seconds" lie of heartless bowhunters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs0i3D6iCuY

*do put the volume up the clips came from several videos but just about every bowhunting videos and pretty much all sports wildlife killing videos are like this, humans cheering as animals suffer and die the kind of death not one of these cowards here would want to die.

Some of the wildlife serial killers has been at the other forum against Maryland bowhunting and now they practically live there because they have no life but to defend their disgusting "sports" of killing. I have asked this question but seems no one has an answer and do as best as possible to avoid answering. Dummie mclod would spam his copy and paste all over the forum after I post the question to push it towards the back because they cannot seem to give me an answer and now Iwonic writes the same "overpopulation" garbage that I have refuted and lets see if you can answer me this questions. You, "Iwonic" said

"We have a huge deer population in Iowa for one reason: thousands of acres of soybeans and corn fields."

If that is the case and we know abundance of food will create more deer all the more reason why killing will never work because of

#1 Compensatory Rebound Effect that even your own "deer management" and DNR knows about use it to their advantage. Now what is CRE you ask?
When there is a sudden drop in deer population like what happens in wildlife serial killing aka hunting there are more food availability and thus cause more fawn birth now watch how QDM (Quality Deer Management) uses CRE to create more fawn birth.

“By keeping the deer population below the carrying capacity of the available habitat, more forage (nutrition) is available per deer. Thus, does are healthier, reproductive success is higher and more does are able to carry two fawns. Ironically, this can result in a greater deer harvest each year. Depending on the relationship of the population and the carrying capacity, an „optimum sustained yield‟ can be achieved where a relatively high reproductive rate allows an abundant harvest each fall. With high-quality habitat and increased nutrition, the percentage of
doe fawns that breed their first fall increases (sometimes up to 25 percent). Also, a higher percentage of yearling does produce two fawns instead of one. Because fawns are born at approximately a 1:1 sex ratio, more bucks may be born each year. Therefore, in some areas, you actually can increase the number of bucks born by shooting more does.” “Quality Deer Management: Guidelines for Implementation,” 6. Agricultural Extension Service, The University of Tennessee. http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publicat ... pb1643.pdf (last accessed November 2008).

Here is another one from PA Game Commission


"Some people disagree with shooting antlerless deer; they reasn that protecting them -- thus maintaining a maximum breeding base -- will assure large number of antlered bucks because terrific numbers of deer will be born each year and button bucks wouldn't be harvested. But bear in mind, a smaller herd in balance with its habitat can produce as many fawns as an oversized herd on poor range. Does have fewer young when habitat quality is lacking" PA Game Commission

Hunting can even increase the severity of wildlife disease epidemic because of CRE

"One reason the policies failed, Choisy and Rohani said, is that they didn’t take into account an ecological principle known as compensation. When a portion of the animal population is reduced, those that survive are left with more resources such as food and shelter. As a result of the newly plentiful resources, the death rate decreases and the birth rate increases, compensating – and sometimes overcompensating – for the loss. Hunting Can Increase The Severity Of Wildlife Disease Epidemics"

Now here is the doozy - they are using food plots and in some places that still allows supplement feeding to use that as well to grow more big racked deer and higher fawn birth for "fawn crops" and "fawn recruits"


"If you're not providing the local herd with enough of the right groceries for maximum antler and body size, as well as high fawn survival, you're not enjoying the full benefits of sound management." North American Whitetails


Such heavy utilization of food plots isn't theoretical; at North American Whitetail's Fort Perry Plantation in Georgia, agricultural crops make up 80 percent of the herd's annual diet. And under management, the deer density increased to more than five times that of natural carrying capacity - even as the health of the natural habitat steadily improved. Here's the key to why whitetails do so well when provided with the right food plots:" North American Whitetails



"We strive to maintain a deer herd that each year that can provide quality sport to more than a million hunters." PA Deer FAQ


"Other habitat management practices that can improve the quantity and quality of forage available to deer (thus increasing carrying capacity)" Quality Deer Management

"With high quality habitat and increased nutrition, the percentage of doe fawns that breed their first fall increases (sometimes up to 25 percent).. Also, a higher percentage of yearling does produce two fawns instead of one." Quality Deer Management


There is a whole lot more but that is enough so I be waiting for your answer.

Now you said about "starvation" but how about in 2008 when 68,000 wounded deer were not recovered by hunters . How about the other states how many did they leave behind? How many wounded and crippled deer have bowhunters left behind? The "starvation" is the oldest excuses in the book and not one of you could care less about "starving" deer if you did you would be kill them rather then the big racked deer plus you are the ones killing deer's natural predators so you can be sure to have enough deer for yourself and deer natural predators such as coyote weed out the sickly and the starving where in sports killers case they kill the strong. Did you know that the size of whitetails has gotten smaller? Not the rack because hunters are too busy create large boned rack to wrap their grubby finger around it for God knows what reason. Did you also know that the size of certain species of bear gotten smaller too because of hunting ? They want to kill the biggest and the baddest looking bear so they can "show off" to other wildlife killers how "important" they are.


There goes that "food" excuses too which we know for a fact that majority of sports killers do not eat the carcass especially the male meat for the males are the ones with the rack and the older the male the tougher the meat right? That is why "hunters for hungry" exist for its easy to "give" something you would never eat yourself besides the fact that CWD and prions are deadly and why take that risk of eating meat that can be poisoned? Boiling and cooking does not kill prions. In fact prions are very hard to destroy. When they had to unearth a man who died from CJD (prions) no one wanted to even go near the body because its so contagious and can still live in a dead body. One day thousands of innocent human from the pantries are going to die from CWD related illness where holes start to create in the brain and its a horrible death all because hunters "give" the meat that they themselves would never eat. How about other diseases like TB and parasites because we know that the meat are not USDA inspected. Now the ones in Wisconsin in the CWD kill zone they are testing before "giving" to the pantries but still high risk. Especially the way the pantries are given ground up venison like in chili stew and all it takes is one sick deer to contaminate it all. I say that those who kill the animals should ALL eat them and let the pantries get good healthy food like vegetarian feeding the hungry. Or how about the fact that 150 billion pounds of edible food are wasted in America every year and with all that food going to the land fill polluting the environment why don't you all start a food salvage program and while you are at it with your food plots that you grow to create large deer herd wth big rack use that time and energy and all the valuable crops and create a rice, beans, corn, soy, potatoes, and all kinds of nutritious food for the hungry and YOU eat the venison. I am sure DNR would be very unhappy because no one would buy the tags if there is no place to dump the bodies. So with all the deer created for the hunting industry they are also causing high deer vehicle accidents as well. So many death comes from the hunting community and how about the recent ones were the young college student was shot mistaken for a deer? Imagine her mother hearing the news that she was killed by a hunter who thought she was a deer? or how about the child and mother on horseback shot as well mistaken for a deer or the dog shot mistaken for a wolf by bowhunter. ? You are all legalized terrorist not only to the lives of the animals but to innocent human lives.

This is why we need deer birth control because as Jay Kirkpatrick says "IT WORKS, AND IT WORKS WELL" and "60% deer herd reduction" and its now EPA and FDA approved for field implementation even before though it was not approved yet IC was able to be used but the hunting industry did not want it because obviously their intention is NOT for long term deer herd reduction and could care less about human death from DVA's . Well, now I am off to bed and hopefully tomorrow my post will be posted and every question will be answered . \:D/


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:01 am 
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CatLady wrote:
I take it not every one watched TV kids vacation dramas like Daktari (on CBS & BBC) at one point then? (maybe after some of the people here's time...?). TV shows like this can shape a person at a formative age. So my question is, what shapes a hunter and what shapes an ARP? What defines them in what they think that they are doing that is beneficial to nature and why do they think that their method is valid? How can a person look at a dead animal at their hand and feel OK and how can a person abhor the sight of it, never mind be responsible for it?

I am not trying to cause a fight BTW, this question is unbiased, as just trying to discover each origin out of sheer interest or nosiness, to understand the mentality and sociology behind or at the route of both sides. If both side are so seriously defending their corner then they surely have serious knowledge of their own origins on the matter...?


CL


If, as an adult, someone is still letting a children's movie, t.v. show, book, etc. influence their thinking on a complex issue like animal rights, then something is very wrong. That is incredibly childish and juvenile. It's time to move beyond the fantasy of talking pigs and deer. It's time to grow up, face reality, and think rationally like an adult. It's time to stop being guided by your emotions so much and start be guided by your mind. Just my $0.02.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:19 am 
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The TV show itself is not that important, it was a very small example of the many things that may go towards influencing us in life which help shape what we believe or do or don't do in life. It was not intended for just for pro hunters to answer.

Thanks for your replies so far.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:36 am 
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Grizzly Bear wrote:
CatLady wrote:
I take it not every one watched TV kids vacation dramas like Daktari (on CBS & BBC) at one point then? (maybe after some of the people here's time...?). TV shows like this can shape a person at a formative age. So my question is, what shapes a hunter and what shapes an ARP? What defines them in what they think that they are doing that is beneficial to nature and why do they think that their method is valid? How can a person look at a dead animal at their hand and feel OK and how can a person abhor the sight of it, never mind be responsible for it?

I am not trying to cause a fight BTW, this question is unbiased, as just trying to discover each origin out of sheer interest or nosiness, to understand the mentality and sociology behind or at the route of both sides. If both side are so seriously defending their corner then they surely have serious knowledge of their own origins on the matter...?


CL


If, as an adult, someone is still letting a children's movie, t.v. show, book, etc. influence their thinking on a complex issue like animal rights, then something is very wrong. That is incredibly childish and juvenile. It's time to move beyond the fantasy of talking pigs and deer. It's time to grow up, face reality, and think rationally like an adult. It's time to stop being guided by your emotions so much and start be guided by your mind. Just my $0.02.




So far (as usual) no one has given me an answer to my questions but I will redo your "cute" little quote

Sports Hunting: Old Native American words meaning man thinks they are "natural" predator but they are not, just store bought "predator" and still bad hunter. O:)


http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/accident-center.html :lol:


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