Grizzly Bear wrote:
Wow. If CarolineTC would lay off the
ad hominem fallacies and the self-righteous, venomous diatribes perhaps we could actually have a rational discussion about deer populations. The subject of deer population management, particularly white-tails, is a complex, not simplistic, subject. It is covered constantly in papers published in professional wildlife management journals. There is no one single cause, and no one single solution, to the problem that some ( not all, I might add ) deer populations are too large. Causes for increased number of deer include the following:
- lack of natural top predators in many areas. Top predators would include species such as wolves, mountain lions, and grizzlies.
- increase in intensely cultivated agricultural lands in the past century. Deer are attracted to crops like corn, soy beans, and the like as an easy food source.
- the expansion of the suburbs. Deer are attracted to vegetable gardens, flowers, bushes, certain tree species, etc. found in suburban yards. Many places that are now suburbs were once rural deer habitat, but the deer do not leave. This is especially true in the heavily populated east coast.
- in many areas where deer population is considered high, there are private lands that are closed to hunting
- poorly thought-out deer hunting regulations/management that does not encourage the culling of enough females from the population. Many state wildlife agencies are now starting to realize that this is a factor and are adjusting their management strategies accordingly.
- a declining number of hunters because of today's highly urbanized/suburbanized society
As one can see, there are a myriad of things that could play a part in an increase in a given deer population. As such, to make a statement such as "hunting causes deer populations to increase" is actually quite irrational. Many ARs float out "deer contraception" as an alternative to hunting as a management tool. Deer contraception is not particularly viable as a solution in most cases. First is the poor cost-effectiveness of the operation, as it is extremely labor intensive. It is estimated that when both the labor and the cost of the drug itself are combined, it costs an average of $1000 to deliver one single dose of deer contraceptive. Second, is the fact that these drugs do not last a long time. One dose typically lasts one year, then the population has to be re-treated. Third, unless a particular deer population is isolated from other populations, it is difficult to treat enough does to achieve a net population decline, as new, untreated does can enter the population from other areas. Fourth, contraception does not produce an immediate decline in population, unlike hunting or other lethal control methods which produce immediate mortality in the population. It would take several years to notice a statistically significant decline in a contraception treated deer population if there is a lack of predators and/or it is not combined with a lethal form of population control. Fifth, is the possible ecological effects of using this, especially large-scale. We still do not fully understand the possible long-term implications for other wildlife by introducing these drugs into the food chain. And once the proverbial genie is let out of the proverbial bottle, it cannot be put back in. Deer contraception is simply a management tool available to biologists. It can be effective in certain situations, but not all, and probably not most. To push it as some kind of cure-all solution based on a knee-jerk, emotional dislike for hunting is reckless, irresponsible, and unwise.
I noticed the subject of Chronic Wasting Disease ( CWD ) was brought up in one of CarolineTC's rants. The air desperately needs to be cleared of the falsehoods and speculations in that post, as they are grossly irresponsible. These are the HARD FACTS about CWD:
- there has never been a confirmed case of a human contracting CWD
- the World Health Organization has determined that there is no scientific evidence to suggest that CWD is transmissible to humans. However, as biologists do not yet completely understand all aspects of CWD, it is advised that animals killed in known CWD-infected areas be tested for the disease and not consumed if they test positive.
- the mean numbered of infected animals in the population is actually quite low. For example, in the combined areas of northern Colorado and southern Wyoming, where CWD is most prevalent, it is 5% for mule deer, 2% for white-tail deer, and >1% for elk.
You can learn more about the facts about CWD here:
http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php"Wow. If CarolineTC would lay off the
ad hominem fallacies and the self-righteous, venomous diatribes perhaps we could actually have a rational discussion about deer populations. " GB
Hunters get insulted by something that is true, because I say you are a wildlife serial killers that is "insulting'? You kill right? Serial killing means killing more then one and its wildlife you are killing so what "ad hominem" about that when when we call you as is. Wildlife serial killers. "- lack of natural top predators in many areas. Top predators would include species such as wolves, mountain lions, and grizzlies." GB
Are you reading what I have written? I don't think so because you know its the hunters killing deers natural predator and is encouraged.
"Varmints, specifically coyotes, are the biggest threats to fawn recruitment on most land throughout the United States. "Deer Management TX"
Hunting is NOT "natural" and is nothing like what naturals predators do. Man is no predator in the wild they are bunch of wildlife serial killeing dingbats who enjoy killing innocent animals for sports and trophy and destroy the natural balance and creates more deer thus higher Deer Vehicel Accidents. "- increase in intensely cultivated agricultural lands in the past century. Deer are attracted to crops like corn, soy beans, and the like as an easy food source." GB
Must have missed the food plot parts of my comments"- the expansion of the suburbs. Deer are attracted to vegetable gardens, flowers, bushes, certain tree species, etc. found in suburban yards. Many places that are now suburbs were once rural deer habitat, but the deer do not leave. This is especially true in the heavily populated east coast.
- in many areas where deer population is considered high, there are private lands that are closed to hunting" GB
What happens is deer seek refuge from gunshots and terrorist in the forest and that is why you find deer where there are no hunting. Hunters created large deer herd then start killing them each season and deer do not want to stay around where there is danger. "- poorly thought-out deer hunting regulations/management that does not encourage the culling of enough females from the population. Many state wildlife agencies are now starting to realize that this is a factor and are adjusting their management strategies accordingly. " GB
again you did not read my comment clearly because it even talks about doe hunting to create more male fawn birth and its been "poorly thought-out" for very long time because they are not about long term deer herd reduction is that so hard for you to understand? What part of my comments did you miss? "- a declining number of hunters because of today's highly urbanized/suburbanized society" GB
More reason the time has come for using IC wildlife contraception. As one can see, there are a myriad of things that could play a part in an increase in a given deer population. As such, to make a statement such as "hunting causes deer populations to increase" is actually quite irrational. Many ARs float out "deer contraception" as an alternative to hunting as a management tool. Deer contraception is not particularly viable as a solution in most cases. First is the poor cost-effectiveness of the operation, as it is extremely labor intensive. It is estimated that when both the labor and the cost of the drug itself are combined, it costs an average of $1000 to deliver one single dose of deer contraceptive. Second, is the blabhallllaha..." GB
Again you did not read my comment about the "1,000 dollar a deer" lies from the hunting industry. You have not read a single thing I have written either that or you cannot read. Here is Jay Kirkpatrick Phd even talks about how pro-kill advocates have their own "science" and Jay kirkpatrick had 15 years in wildlife contraception and you are arguing against his knowledge.? Here is part of what Jay says in the video
"I know that quiet a few "expert" has found their way into Pittsburg both from Agencies (hunting) and other academic institutions and primarily their message has been "this doesn't work"..umm its interersting that "expert witnesess" who paraded themselves thru Pittsburg who never themselves been involved in wildlife contraceptives projects of any scales and they have offered to you a varities of opinions and ideas, congectures and assumptions but they haven't given you any numbers, they haven't given you any datas..." Dr. Jay Kirkpatrick, deer contraception expert, explains the startling successes in deer contraception, its authorization for use and availability. Dr. Kirkpatrick is the founder and Director of the Science and
Conservation Center, Montana. He has worked with
contraception on 90 species of animals, including wild horses, several species of deer, African elephants and water buffalo .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aANcNyYbLpwI noticed the subject of Chronic Wasting Disease ( CWD ) was brought up in one of CarolineTC's rants. The air desperately needs to be cleared of the falsehoods and speculations in that post, as they are grossly irresponsible. These are the HARD FACTS about CWD:
- there has never been a confirmed case of a human contracting CWD
- the World Health Organization has determined that there is no scientific evidence to suggest that CWD is transmissible to humans. However, as biologists do not yet completely understand all aspects of CWD, it is advised that animals killed in known CWD-infected areas be tested for the disease and not consumed if they test positive.
- the mean numbered of infected animals in the population is actually quite low. For example, in the combined areas of northern Colorado and southern Wyoming, where CWD is most prevalent, it is 5% for mule deer, 2% for white-tail deer, and >1% for elk.
You can learn more about the facts about CWD here:
http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php[/quote]" GB
"biologist do not yet completely understand all aspects of CWD" they really either have no idea about the disease and the danger or they do and they are downplaying because that would ruin it for the hunting industry. Here is 2 sites I had created for the subject of CWD/CJD/Mad Deer Diseases because these are all diseases caused by prions so even though the death may not be listed as "CWD" in humans it can be considered CJD or early case of Alzheimer. CWD death can mimic other disease caused by the mutant protein called prions.
"While wildlife agencies play down any danger, they also provide stark warnings not to eat animal parts considered to be at highest risk, such as the brain and nervous tissue. Many suggest that meat from an infected animal not be eaten at all.
"It's kind of a mixed message," says Jim Woodward, a Wellington, Colo., activist who opposes the state's approach. "They seem to be comfortable in making some extremely definitive statements that humans aren't going get this disease. And that's exactly what happened in England in the 1980s," in the early days of mad cow.
Some researchers share his skepticism. Working with mice, University of Colorado neurologist Patrick Bosque has detected infectious prions not only in neural tissue but in muscle, and believes CWD may be transmissible to other species, including humans. It is a view shared by many who study the disease.
"We have to be careful about concluding that it hasn't happened," says Hoover.
"Unfortunately, both the federal and state governments are badly bungling this issue and falsely reassuring people that what happened in Britain could never happen here. The Centers for Disease Control should have made all cases of human CJD reportable to monitor the true number, but in 1999 refused to do so. " "
http://www.myspace.com/maddeer1967 (that is myspace site just put my information)
Here is the youtube
http://www.youtube.com/user/MadDeerDisease
Here is an aritcle called What the government isn't telling you about mad deer disease.
http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/ ... index.html
Overall Mr. Grizzly you have no answered much of my questions instead it was ignored because you have repeated that has already been refuted. 
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