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suffering in nature
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Author:  Wayne Stollings [ Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

LetiziaPallara wrote:
endorphins group of opioid peptides made in nerve cells in the brain and released from their axons as neurotransmitters or neurohormones, which bind to and activate opioid receptors of other cells (where opioid drugs also act). The first to be identified in brain tissue (1970s) were named enkephalins; many more were later identified. They are released in strenuous exercise and in stressful or painful situations. Subgroups have varied and widespread actions, diminishing the sensation of pain, inducing euphoria (e.g. 'runner's high') and interacting with the immune system.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... endorphins

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104618/


When red deer (Cervus elaphus) were hunted by humans with hounds the average distance travelled was at least 19 km. This study of 64 hunted red deer provides the first empirical evidence on their state at the time of death. Blood and muscle samples obtained from hunted deer after death were compared with samples from 50 non-hunted red deer that had been cleanly shot with rifles. The effects on deer of long hunts were (i) depletion of carbohydrate resources for powering muscles, (ii) disruption of muscle tissue, and (iii) elevated secretion of beta-endorphin. High concentrations of cortisol, typically associated with extreme physiological and psychological stress, were found. Damage to red blood cells occurred early in the hunts; possible mechanisms are discussed. Taken together, the evidence suggests that red deer are not well-adapted by their evolutionary or individual history to cope with the level of activity imposed on them when hunted with hounds.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9447728


So your references actually support what Cobie has already told you.

Quote:
So you can imagine how stressful is the life for an animal inside a lab: they are not well-adapted by their evolutionary or individual history to cope with the level of activity imposed on them by the jail and the testing.


What level of activity would that be in relation to the average activity for their species? You are not making very good logical connections as you have not indicated any activity in the lab which causes the test subject to be force to do something passed the point of exhaustion, which would be the only logical connection to make.

Quote:
Sorry that I can't reply in a wider way but I have a lot of things to do in these days as I am going to manifest at the Cinema Festival in Venice for Stop Vivisection.


By all means take this time to educate yoursolf more completely on the subject or you may show enough ignorance to harm your position.

Author:  Donnie Mac Leod [ Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

Hello Letizia.
Your evidence shows that Cobie was right with regards to endorphins & how they work. Have you ever been to a Cancer Ward?? The folks in those wards have all kinds of spooky contraptions stuck in their flesh everywhere but strangely enough those scary looking tubes and things are a blessing that alleviates the pain & suffering although an ARA proponent would think otherwise if seen hooked up to a cat on Utube. BTW. A lot of lab animals are off spring from generations after generations of lab animals & bred specifically for that purpose,so they are not predisposed to be running in the wild or on a leash at the family cottage.

Author:  LetiziaPallara [ Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

Donnie Mac Leod wrote:
Hello Letizia.
Your evidence shows that Cobie was right with regards to endorphins & how they work. Have you ever been to a Cancer Ward?? The folks in those wards have all kinds of spooky contraptions stuck in their flesh everywhere but strangely enough those scary looking tubes and things are a blessing that alleviates the pain & suffering although an ARA proponent would think otherwise if seen hooked up to a cat on Utube. BTW. A lot of lab animals are off spring from generations after generations of lab animals & bred specifically for that purpose,so they are not predisposed to be running in the wild or on a leash at the family cottage.



Donnie,
There are terrible things that exist along thousand years and more but they cause everyday suffering and pain. I am speaking for example about male and female genital mutilation, praticated from the 10,000 (?) BCE by Aboriginal tribes in Australia and crossing the continents and the timeline practised by Africans, Arabians and now spreading in all the world.
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/in ... &Itemid=54
For sure that is an unethical and cruel practise.
The people and especially children submit to the genital mutilation (circumcision or infibulation etc.) suffer a lot physically and psicically for all their life.
But there is no law forbidding those practise in those countries.
And there is not a strong law against that neither in the west:
http://www.endfgm.eu/en/female-genital- ... minal-law/

http://www.trust.org/item/?map=female-g ... tes-report

A lot of people are off spring from generations after generations of mutilations, rapes, tortures but they are not predisposed to afford those practises

And we have the moral obligation to stop mutilations, rapes, tortures on all species and gender of animals.

Author:  Donnie Mac Leod [ Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

Quote:
A lot of people are off spring from generations after generations of mutilations, rapes, tortures but they are not predisposed to afford those practises

And we have the moral obligation to stop mutilations, rapes, tortures on all species and gender of animals.


What you are proposing is the diminishing of Human & animal betterment of health & welfare in favour of doing nothing to increase ability to relieve suffering. Comparing the search for that knowledge to Rape, torture for fun, or genital mutilation is beyond apple & oranges naivety. The research departments that helps animals tomorrow should continue & do not apologize for that observation as it is also compassion that drives me into that belief..


Author:  LetiziaPallara [ Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

No, research on animal is made for 1 business, money, economical interests, social interests (a faster career);
2 ignorance, obscurantism, traditionalism
3 sadism, fun, cruelty

And these reasons are not too different from the conservativism that bring some people to maintain such cruel traditional uses.
Rape, torture and genital mutilation were made to oppress the people in their social and sexual life

https://sites.google.com/site/completebaby/female

and genital mutilation was also performed by lot of doctors.

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/in ... 6&Itemid=6

Like its male counterpart, circumcision of females has two histories. First it is a ritual or customary practice among tribal societies (mostly in Africa) and some Islamic communities. Secondly it is a medical intervention, justified by Victorian (and, in the USA, some twentieth century) doctors in exactly the same way as they rationalised circumcision of boys: to deter masturbation, to treat obscure nervous disorders such as hysteria, neurasthenia and epilepsy, and thereby to promote health.

Please have a look at the video on animal testing:

http://vimeo.com/68294408

Author:  Wayne Stollings [ Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

LetiziaPallara wrote:
No, research on animal is made for 1 business, money, economical interests, social interests (a faster career);
2 ignorance, obscurantism, traditionalism
3 sadism, fun, cruelty


That is your belief, but a belief not very well supported by factual evidence. When you require faith to support such a belief you have little chance of convincing any rationally thinking person to embrace that belief. So you seek to gain the support of the emotionally driven to stop the rationally thinking .... sad in many ways.

Author:  Cobie [ Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

Hi Letizia: I suppose I should not hold my breath for an apology from you for calling me mad when a simple search told you I was correct about endorphins? And deer hunted with hounds are under stress (no suprises there, really) and produce endorphins to cope with that. Do you think this is different from deer hunted down by a wolf pack? And BTW, the conclusion of that quote is bad biology - of course deer have adapted to being hunted by hounds (or wolves) or they would all have been eaten by now. Deer can run and most of them escape wolves (contrary to tv documentaries, many if not most attempts by predators fail). Moreover, when hunting deer with hounds, the deer is actually selected beforehand by people who go out and then let the hunt know where the chosen animal is. And that animal is usually chosen for a reason - an old stag that has come to the end of his reproductive life, or a surplus stag - hinds tend not to be hunted because of being pregnant or nursing offspring.

As for your gratuitous remarks about those who engage in animal research, may I point out, again, that spouting offense is no way to engage with those of whom you disapprove? And that it is up to you to prove your statements? I, as a researcher, do not have to justify myself to you (although I am quite happy to engage in a civilised conversation with someone who although they do not agree with me at least have take the time to make themselves familiar with the practice of doing research. You found the offical web site about this but dismiss it out of hand as just words - is that how you consider the law? Because that is what these words are, law that has to be obeyed); I somehow doubt you can be civil at all, but show me, and others, what is your evidence to back up your offensive remarks - you started it.

So how about it?

Author:  LetiziaPallara [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

Cobie,
yes you are right that under stress all animals produce endorphins. But you forget that when an animal is not biologically adapted to the stress condition, he produces also: (i) depletion of carbohydrate resources for powering muscles, (ii) disruption of muscle tissue, and (iii) elevated secretion of beta-endorphin. High concentrations of cortisol, typically associated with extreme physiological and psychological stress

And this situation of emergency in the body, in a long period produces toxicity that destroy serotonin and other substances necessary to the psychic equilibrium.
So the deer can escape or be eaten.
The animals closed in a lab can't escape and the stress is in a long period.
And there is not natural selection in torturing and killing the animals in lab.
Because are mainly used the best, healthy, strong animals.
And the diseases are artificially induced.

Cobie, it is never too late for a change.

Author:  Wayne Stollings [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

LetiziaPallara wrote:
Cobie,
yes you are right that under stress all animals produce endorphins. But you forget that when an animal is not biologically adapted to the stress condition, he produces also: (i) depletion of carbohydrate resources for powering muscles, (ii) disruption of muscle tissue, and (iii) elevated secretion of beta-endorphin. High concentrations of cortisol, typically associated with extreme physiological and psychological stress


That would be due to the continued exertion by the animal, which would also be seen in the hounds and even people following if they had not participated in such activities recently and regularly. Exercise greater than the normal range will do this.

Quote:
And this situation of emergency in the body, in a long period produces toxicity that destroy serotonin and other substances necessary to the psychic equilibrium.
So the deer can escape or be eaten.
The animals closed in a lab can't escape and the stress is in a long period.


But not the stress exhibited by the chasing with hounds, which is where the logic used disconnects from the reality.

Author:  Donnie Mac Leod [ Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

Reading the comments about stress by Letizia one would soon recognize that no patient should ever leave the Hospital because they know they have an incurable disease and the stress of that hopelessness should rob them of their ability to reacquire hope. As I noted before ,a lot of folks look at a hospital patient in unbelievable hook-ups & fearsome contraptions knowing that it helps patients and they will tell you they feel discomfort but not real pain. Yet when an ARA views lesser contraptions on a lab subject they think the worst because they want to believe the worst. I feel bad for Letizia because I think she has a very compassionate nature but at the same time I truly believe ARA propaganda is taking advantage of her empathy & blinds her to the reality that Lab research has caused a lot less suffering for billions of pets and people.

Author:  Cobie [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: suffering in nature

Oh, honestly..... stress destroys serotonin? The stress of being hunted does no such thing. Prolonged inescapable stress may eventually affect the serotonin system but being hunted is not in that class. But starvation or disease may be, which is what would happen if deer were not hunted (by humans or non-humans). Already in parts of the US deer are now so numerous (because there are no wolves, and also because deer have moved into human habitat where shooting is not allowed, and where "kind" people feed them) that they are not only starving themselves but causing their whole environment's health to collapse. Please provide evidence (from a real scientific source, not youtube or AV sites) that the stress of being hunted affects the serotonin system. This neuroscientist is always ready to further her education.

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