EnviroLink Forum

Community • Ecology • Connection
It is currently Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:49 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:46 pm 
Offline
Member with 50 posts!
Member with 50 posts!

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 51
mothy wrote:
Having a vegan diet means trying to minimise suffering. Vegetariansim does't come as close to the minimising of suffering. Milk was meant for the calf, we are the only mature species thet drink milk apart from cats.


Wild cats don't drink milk. Mature animals only drink milk because it is available, and because it is highly nutritious. I have some mature goats that would gladly take a bottle. I also forcibly have them drink their own milk if it feels like mastitis is coming along.
Anyways, what is wrong with my picture? The does (NOT NANNIES!!) walk around in the fields, eat browse and grass and get a grain supplement when they come up to be milked.
Contrast this, of course, with a cow CAFO that injects their animals with all manner of unhealthy drugs, and keeps them confined and milks them, I can see your concern and where you are coming from.

mothy wrote:
There is scientific proof that a bereavement occurs between the mother cow and calf when they are separated then the frightened calf is put in a crate and fed a milk substitute.


That is veal extremism. Nowadays, veal simply means "young calf meat" and has been shown to be extremely good for people, particularly the ill. And because it is a calf, it will not have been put in a CAFO. It may have been dry lotted, however, but that is not a concern provided the drylot is large enough.

mothy wrote:
In the egg laying industry the male chicks are either gassed or fed live into a mincing machine.


I wouldn't doubt that. That is awful, and wasteful. Of course the male egg-layers are perfectly useless, anyways. Contrast this with my operation where the chickens free range and eat bugs 80% of the time.

mothy wrote:
Of course there is cruelty in arable farming but that is not intentional.


Your point? There is abuse everywhere.

mothy wrote:
Sure they wouldn't exist but that which never existed could never have suffered.


In that case, killing the chicks is humane, right? That way it can't exist to be harmed. Animals were put here to provide us with sustainance. There is no getting around that,

mothy wrote:
Indeed it would be sad to see green fields void of sheep and cattle but if that meant no intensive farming and no slaughterhouses that would be fine by me.


Why do the two have to exist together for either to survive? The answer is they don't. If you buy pasture-based meats, you are helping the environment, farmers, and knocking a blow on the CAFO practices. Also, I believe your comments about "intensive farming" are misdirected. Pastures can be intensively managed as well.

mothy wrote:
I can jump over the fence and see where you are coming from but I have a different belief rightly or wrongly.

Whats your thoughts on intensive farming?


Another thing is animal welfare vs. animal rights. I'm all for animal welfare, but not rights. They have none. Instead, humans are obligated to be good stewards and make decisions that benefit the farmer. Do you know any local farmers? You should buy food from them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:50 pm 
Offline
Member with 50 posts!
Member with 50 posts!

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 51
mothy wrote:
One other thing. You made no reference when I mentioned the frightened calf. Do I conclude you accept this as part of mans ill-gotten gains?


Animals often scare the heck out of each other, too. 8-[


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:51 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20533
Location: Southeastern US
mothy wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
Calves are fed a milk substitute based on a dried milk powder because it is cheaper.


Odd, it seems that is not always the case ......

http://www.hubbellfarm.com/beef/

We have our own Jersey cow who gives us milk, butter and cheese. She produces more than we can use. We also raise a limited number of milk fed veal. These veal are not contained in a small compartment and fed milk substitute. They are fed whole milk, fresh from the cow and have the opportunity to live out their life in a healthy open environment.

Quote:
Chicks in the wild are prone to animals that do not have our potential for empathy and altruism.


Death is not death if the cause is lacking the potential for empathy? Suffering is not suffering if the cause is lacking the potential for empathy?


Quote:
Instinct is stronger than reason.


Not always. Instinct says to run from a fire, yet firemen counter that with the use of reason and approach the fire.



I 'm not talking about a highly trained fireman I'm talking about the basic sexual drive. Thinking with the wrong head comes to mind. So many abortions don't you think? and that is humans


I don't know. We stopped with two children because of reasoning and there was a lot of instinct to procreate, but the resources would not be sustainable if that were followed.

Quote:
The penquin doesn't think 'hey I really fancy you but I must refrain from any sexual urge cos the chicks will be freezing in this climate'. And yes they do suffer.


The peguins do not reason do they? If they did they may move north to a warmer clime.

Quote:
death is death in the objective sense whether its accompanied by subjectivity that is endowed upon the deceased by a living sentient or not. although dying is real to the victim.


So the thoughts regarding empathy in relation to death and suffering are not really conncected to the actual instances of death and suffering?

Quote:
And I ain't talking about the small farm that is full of compassion which many are but the industrial side of the market.


But you "corrected" me when I stated there were calves which were fed milk, which is clearly the case. If you are trying to paint the whole of the industry with a brush, it will most likely fail the application.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:26 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:59 am
Posts: 2262
Location: Central Colorado
My sister is a vegan, and forced it on her kids. A nutrient only found in meat or excessive amounts of cheese prevents ADHD in boys, from Mother Earth News a few years back. Her son got ADHD.
She said she would not eat anything that had eyes. I said, how about potatoes??
If it has eyes, eat 'em!!! :twisted:

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:59 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 1348
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
One other thing. You made no reference when I mentioned the frightened calf. Do I conclude you accept this as part of mans ill-gotten gains?


Animals are often easily frightened by many things, especially younger animals.


That is not answering the question.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:08 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 1348
Ayway there has been good points brought up. If i was to eat meat itwould comefrom a small farm that had free range everything. Even after twenty four years I still have a craving for meat. Some might say that is enough proof that I'm wrong, But I still had a craving for killing those that vandalised my car (which has killed many insects). Like I said earlier there is no such thing as real vegan and what makes it difficult for me I can see both sides of the arguement. But not when it comes to intensive farming, battery hens, the slaying of male chicks, which will soon be food for the battery hen and the veal trade.

Thanks for all your contributions. I've heard all the dialogue before after all this time.


Last edited by mothy on Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:10 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 1348
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
My sister is a vegan, and forced it on her kids. A nutrient only found in meat or excessive amounts of cheese prevents ADHD in boys, from Mother Earth News a few years back. Her son got ADHD.
She said she would not eat anything that had eyes. I said, how about potatoes??
If it has eyes, eat 'em!!! :twisted:


the hills have eyes was a good film and quite a mouthful.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:05 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20533
Location: Southeastern US
mothy wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
One other thing. You made no reference when I mentioned the frightened calf. Do I conclude you accept this as part of mans ill-gotten gains?


Animals are often easily frightened by many things, especially younger animals.


That is not answering the question.


Yes, it does answer the question. Young animals are often frightened by things other than humans. Thus, the connection to "man's ill-gotten gains" is not accurate.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:27 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:42 am
Posts: 1335
HeritageFarm wrote:
mothy wrote:
Having a vegan diet means trying to minimise suffering. Vegetariansim does't come as close to the minimising of suffering. Milk was meant for the calf, we are the only mature species thet drink milk apart from cats.


Vegetarianism goes a long way ... and Veganism goes further.

Anyways, what is wrong with my picture? The does (NOT NANNIES!!) walk around in the fields, eat browse and grass and get a grain supplement when they come up to be milked.
Contrast this, of course, with a cow CAFO that injects their animals with all manner of unhealthy drugs, and keeps them confined and milks them, I can see your concern and where you are coming from.

it is not only the health of humans that one is concerned with, but also the well being and ualty of life of the farm animal. Some constitutions need to eat meat .... sometimes.

mothy wrote:
There is scientific proof that a bereavement occurs between the mother cow and calf when they are separated then the frightened calf is put in a crate and fed a milk substitute.


That is veal extremism. Nowadays, veal simply means "young calf meat" and has been shown to be extremely good for people, particularly the ill. And because it is a calf, it will not have been put in a CAFO. It may have been dry lotted, however, but that is not a concern provided the drylot is large enough.

?????? Young calfs are called veal in the US and are an economic resource. That is the bottom line really, or at least one of them. It's a strange practice when you look at it full on, when you see it for what it is, simply.

mothy wrote:
In the egg laying industry the male chicks are either gassed or fed live into a mincing machine.


I wouldn't doubt that. That is awful, and wasteful. Of course the male egg-layers are perfectly useless, anyways. Contrast this with my operation where the chickens free range and eat bugs 80% of the time.

What do you do with the male chicks? Especially since the males are useless? "The male egg-layers are pefectly useless". Of course they are and yet they are still animals. Or are they?

mothy wrote:
Sure they wouldn't exist but that which never existed could never have suffered.


In that case, killing the chicks is humane, right? That way it can't exist to be harmed. Animals were put here to provide us with sustainance. There is no getting around that,

It is necessary to kill animals for food sometimes, but expecting animal protein as THE source of protein is simply wrong as there is so much protein around and the eating of animals as a source of protein is a cultural belief, habit, and tradition.

mothy wrote:
Indeed it would be sad to see green fields void of sheep and cattle but if that meant no intensive farming and no slaughterhouses that would be fine by me.


Why do the two have to exist together for either to survive? The answer is they don't. If you buy pasture-based meats, you are helping the environment, farmers, and knocking a blow on the CAFO practices. Also, I believe your comments about "intensive farming" are misdirected. Pastures can be intensively managed as well.

Small farms are inherently more humane for the animals bred upon them. CAFO operations are in existance, now. They are here because the population believes they are necesary. They ARE necessary if one wants and expects meat at every turn. As if the main and only source of protein is from animals. This simply is not true. We have CAFO's because of a false belief. This false belief is fed by the industry itself.

Another thing is animal welfare vs. animal rights. I'm all for animal welfare, but not rights. They have none. Instead, humans are obligated to be good stewards and make decisions that benefit the farmer. Do you know any local farmers? You should buy food from them.



I agree, but then the discussion of what makes good stewards ensues. if we are obligated to be good stewards, why do CAFO's exist? They exist because they have advocated well for the need of animal protein when in fact protein is everywhere. There is no danger of being protein deficient without animal protein. Apparantly, we can justify inhumane practices as stewardship. So what, really, is stewardship? I don't think CAFO's are an example, yet they proliferate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:28 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 1348
'The penguins do not reason.' You say. This is what I meant about instinct is stronger than reason, especially in non-human animals and certain humans.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:45 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 1348
Mans ill-gotten gains as far as milk is concerned are directly connected to the scaring and suffering of the calf.
Nature intended milk for the young, not for some pussy to put in his tea.
We can be good sovereigns or bad ones. This is not the act of a good sovereign. If God made man in his image then we should treat animals the same way we would expect a good God to treat us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:58 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20533
Location: Southeastern US
mothy wrote:
Mans ill-gotten gains as far as milk is concerned are directly connected to the scaring and suffering of the calf.


Not necessarily, as you can get milk without scaring the calf and the calf may be scared without human influences.

Quote:
Nature intended milk for the young, not for some pussy to put in his tea.


Nature intended? Did Nature speak directly to you on the subject? It would seem that if nature did not intend for humans to drink milk we would not be able to digest it. Just as it is not natural for humans to digest cellulose, we can infer no such unnatural aspect to consumption of milk given the number of other creatures which will consume it given the chance. Humans use their nature skills to allow them to obatin milk for their consumption, thus that must be classified as natural.

Quote:
We can be good sovereigns or bad ones.


Or we may be indfferent soverigns which are neither good nor bad.

Quote:
This is not the act of a good sovereign.


That would be one opinion on the subject.

Quote:
If God made man in his image then we should treat animals the same way we would expect a good God to treat us.


And if there was no God creation of man, this would be void? The logic is flawed even if one could produce evidence to support divine creation of humanity, as such a creation does not require treatment of animals in any certain manner.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:10 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 1348
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
Mans ill-gotten gains as far as milk is concerned are directly connected to the scaring and suffering of the calf.


Not necessarily, as you can get milk without scaring the calf and the calf may be scared without human influences.

Quote:
Nature intended milk for the young, not for some pussy to put in his tea.


Nature intended? Did Nature speak directly to you on the subject? It would seem that if nature did not intend for humans to drink milk we would not be able to digest it. Just as it is not natural for humans to digest cellulose, we can infer no such unnatural aspect to consumption of milk given the number of other creatures which will consume it given the chance. Humans use their nature skills to allow them to obatin milk for their consumption, thus that must be classified as natural.

Quote:
We can be good sovereigns or bad ones.


Or we may be indfferent soverigns which are neither good nor bad.

Quote:
This is not the act of a good sovereign.


That would be one opinion on the subject.

Quote:
If God made man in his image then we should treat animals the same way we would expect a good God to treat us.


And if there was no God creation of man, this would be void? The logic is flawed even if one could produce evidence to support divine creation of humanity, as such a creation does not require treatment of animals in any certain manner.


I shall refer back to industrial scale farming where very little if any compassion exists where it has been proved calves are put through the trauma of being separated from their mothers. Do you even care? Do I have to post an image of a calf in a veal crate?

Nature did a good job in the evolution of the species so far without man meddling. And why is so many people lactose intolerant and the Lactic acid in milk attacks the bones.

I think you may find even if God doesn't exist then concience does cept in a psychopath.
How you use that conscience affects humans aswell as animals. The heavier the conscience the better the sovereignty.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:20 am 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:11 am
Posts: 20
can you briefly explain that what is vegan...how we can kill lifeforms????


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: vegan
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:38 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20533
Location: Southeastern US
einfopedia wrote:
can you briefly explain that what is vegan...how we can kill lifeforms????



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group