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altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer
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Author:  mothy [ Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK5uPBF- ... E72435A948

Author:  Cobie [ Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

Very sweet but not altruism - altruism would imply the dog made a conscious choice to foster the kittens. It is in fact rather common for animals that have lost their off-spring (her puppies were adopted) to "adopt" other young animals, including those of other species (although sometimes they need a little trickery - horse breeders will often wrap an orphan foal in the hide of a mare's dead foal to get bonding - however, as soon as the orphan can suckle, this will trigger hormone release that leads to bonding so the hide can be removed soon; and not all mares need the trick, they will accept the foal). Dogs have in fact been used as foster mothers for zoo animals that could not be nursed by their biological mother. Here in Oz we have a german shepherd who fostered a tiger cub, for instance. Cross-species nurturing, in short, is not uncommon, and more due to the loss of own offspring and the need to nurse offspring, ie, having lots of milk left. To call it altruism is anthropomorphic. Actually, humans have been known to engage in cross-species nurturing (monkeys, where these are kept as pets; and puppies, in some cases). However, this too may not be altruism since mothers need to have enough milk for their own child first; and feeding monkeys or dogs when there is milk enough for all ensures there will be meat for the table...

Author:  mothy [ Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

But doesn't what you apply confirm the maternal instinct? Which makes the lesser animal more akin to humans?

If it swerves to avoid you it must have a mind that must be respected.
Mothy

Is a conscious choice more admirable than an instinctual?

Since both can include morals and ethics.

Author:  Wayne Stollings [ Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

mothy wrote:
But doesn't what you apply confirm the maternal instinct? Which makes the lesser animal more akin to humans?

If it swerves to avoid you it must have a mind that must be respected.
Mothy

Is a conscious choice more admiral than an instinctual?

Since both can include morals and ethics.


The definition of morals and ethics implies the ability to choose a path of action rather than having that path chosen, thus instinctual actions could not be either moral nor ethical, but result only from conscious choice. This would be why the only examples of morals and ethics in nature are in what many consider unnatural conditions since they separate human action from natural action.

Author:  mothy [ Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
But doesn't what you apply confirm the maternal instinct? Which makes the lesser animal more akin to humans?

If it swerves to avoid you it must have a mind that must be respected.
Mothy

Is a conscious choice more admiral than an instinctual?

Since both can include morals and ethics.


The definition of morals and ethics implies the ability to choose a path of action rather than having that path chosen, thus instinctual actions could not be either moral nor ethical, but result only from conscious choice. This would be why the only examples of morals and ethics in nature are in what many consider unnatural conditions since they separate human action from natural action.


Instinctual actions result from choice? Care to elaborate?

I had an uneasy feeling about the ethics and moral stuff as I feel we don't really know enough about instinct and moral choice to comment with true conviction.

Author:  Wayne Stollings [ Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

mothy wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
But doesn't what you apply confirm the maternal instinct? Which makes the lesser animal more akin to humans?

If it swerves to avoid you it must have a mind that must be respected.
Mothy

Is a conscious choice more admiral than an instinctual?

Since both can include morals and ethics.


The definition of morals and ethics implies the ability to choose a path of action rather than having that path chosen, thus instinctual actions could not be either moral nor ethical, but result only from conscious choice. This would be why the only examples of morals and ethics in nature are in what many consider unnatural conditions since they separate human action from natural action.


Instinctual actions result from choice? Care to elaborate?


No, instinctual actions do not allow a choice, thus cannot be either moral nor ethical in nature.

Quote:
I had an uneasy feeling about the ethics and moral stuff as I feel we don't really know enough about instinct and moral choice to comment with true conviction.


Instinct is pretty well documented so that aspect would be fairly clear. The moral or ethical aspect is relative to the society, which makes it a variable scale. The only clear aspect is the choice to follow the moral or ethical mores of the society.

Author:  mothy [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

Isn't there a possibilty that in some cases what we 'understand and accept' of instinct actually may include a certain amout of choice? I'm not including what you have learnt, conceived or perceived. In the video I believe what we are witnessing is a certain amount of choice. It cannot be proved categorically only assumed . I stress in some cases only. Cobie writes alot of sense but based on fixed ideas of whether rightly or wrongly may or may not be the case.

The sheep whose offspring had died and the skin of its young was attached to that of an orphaned lamb then raised it as its young does seem to be instinct.





You won't destroy me with your cheap inuendos, sly, dirty, and lying implications.

You are making me stronger.

Worry what other folk think about you and become their unkown prisoner.


sensitivity can not only create a prince amongst princes but can also create a prince amongst darkness.

Author:  Wayne Stollings [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

mothy wrote:
Isn't there a possibilty that in some cases what we 'understand and accept' of instinct actually may include a certain amout of choice?


It is possilble, but not very probable given the information we have.


Quote:
I'm not including what you have learnt, conceived or perceived.


:eh:

Quote:
In the video I believe what we are witnessing is a certain amount of choice. It cannot be proved categorically only assumed .


You can assume anyhting you wish, but that does not make it any more correct.

Quote:
I stress in some cases only. Cobie writes alot of sense but based on fixed ideas of whether rightly or wrongly may or may not be the case.


I love a clear and firm .... "maybe or maybe not" .... :mrgreen:


Quote:
You won't destroy me with your cheap inuendos, sly, dirty, and lying implications.

You are making me stronger.

Worry what other folk think about you and become their unkown prisoner.


sensitivity can not only create a prince amongst princes but can also create a prince amongst darkness.


The Prince of Darkness? :evil:

Author:  mothy [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

Very probably is not a definitive case.

Assumption is never truth.

Maybe or maybe not reveals an open mind.

The prince of darkness=depression.

You seem to evaluate your reality on what you learnt through academia. Never jumping out of the box. And also the truths based around those lame axioms and aphorisms youe seem to base your conceptions upon.

Do you think 911 was orchestrated by a man in cave?
With kind regards.

Author:  Wayne Stollings [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

mothy wrote:
Very probably is not a definitive case.


Neither is "possibly", but "very probably" is more definitive by far.

Quote:
Assumption is never truth.


No, assumption can be truth, but it just does not require proof to be formed.

Quote:
Maybe or maybe not reveals an open mind.


And a lack of evidence to firmly support anything ......

Quote:
The prince of darkness=depression.


Not always, he may be upbeat too.

Quote:
You seem to evaluate your reality on what you learnt through academia.


You mean like what can be measured and proved? Yes, that is reality. What may be if something is unknown does not form a good basis for reality.

Quote:
Never jumping out of the box. And also the truths based around those lame axioms and aphorisms youe seem to base your conceptions upon.


You may think they are lame, but then again you require no proof only assumption, which you also say is not truth.

Quote:
Do you think 911 was orchestrated by a man in cave?


No, but I think the man who orchestrated the 9/11 attacks moved to a cave for a time.

Author:  mothy [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

'Very probably' has been the downfall of many a police case.

Assumption formed without possible truth lies on precarious grounds.

An open mind never reveals a firm support for criteria but accesses paths that may lead to the truth.

Depression may experience uplift but it is very short experienced.

Moved to a cave! I suppose you believe Saddam had bad teeth!

Author:  Wayne Stollings [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

mothy wrote:
'Very probably' has been the downfall of many a police case.


And the conviction for many many more ......

Quote:
Assumption formed without possible truth lies on precarious grounds.


Everything is possible but fewer things are actually probable.

Quote:
An open mind never reveals a firm support for criteria but accesses paths that may lead to the truth.


Along with equal access to paths that may not lead to the truth.

Quote:
Depression may experience uplift but it is very short experienced.


Possibly, but then again everything may be possible.

Quote:
Moved to a cave! I suppose you believe Saddam had bad teeth!


I thought you were speaking of 9/11 :eh:

Author:  Johhny Electriglide [ Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

Responding to mothy's mental illness and scattered illogic is, to me, a waste of bandwidth and time. Even greencarz had a little more sense. :razz:

Author:  mothy [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: altruism amongst the 'lesser' animal as most would refer

Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Responding to mothy's mental illness and scattered illogic is, to me, a waste of bandwidth and time. Even greencarz had a little more sense. :razz:


Oh yes wise guy!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... iraq_x.htm

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