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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:30 am 
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Then why do we have to imagine anything if there are factual references? How is current society basically corrupt without any references to support said claim?


Are you one of these individuals who have not questioned the current conditions? I have met a few. Are you actually asking for some kind of peer-reviewed study and analysis of corruption?

You are seemingly a person who values some kind of academic justification and validation.
Are you really asking for references in order that you may be able to discuss corruption? Can't you see it without needing to have some kind of academic body to do research and validate or measure it?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:45 am 
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Cobie wrote:
I have lost the thread here.. but one thing did strike me: Human offspring can be at risk - of suffocation if very young babies sleep with their parents.


Cobie .... Why have you lost the thread? That you have lost it is part of the problem. Where is the caring? Focus here. This is important. We are talking about animals who are conscious beings, just as humans are, but with a different structure. We were talking about pigs ..... farrowing crates, etc. Why should these animals not feel sunlight? Why could they or should they not experience nature? Why must they be subject to such unnatural conditions? What happens to human beings when they don't get to go outside? And mostly unnecessary.

Don't loose the thread.

I am only saying what many of us are saying .... and what is obvious. I am not advocating a vegan lifestyle, but I am speaking out against an industry that is largely unnecessary.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:09 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
The cruelty claim? Is it only a "claim"?

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Yes, it is a claim. Cruelty is a subjective determination so what you believe may be cruel is not what the consensus of the society believes is cruel. In this case the majority belief would be the logical basis for the determination of any claim.


"Cruelty is a subjective determination"

Sure Wayne.


Glad that you understand .... or pretend to understand, but more likely do not understand and are trying to be sarcastic.

Quote:
Quote:
" ...so what you believe may be cruel is not what the consensus of the society believes is cruel."


This is obviously a very weak argument. Society changes and the determination of what is cruel changes alongside.


The changing definition is the evidence of the subjective nature or the same definition would have always existed.

Quote:
I think we ALL know what cruelty is.


We all may have our own definition of what cruelty is, but that definition is not constant nor consistent or there would not be any need to discuss what is and is not cruel.

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During the time of slaves there were folks who knew what cruelty was.


During that time everyone knew what cruelty was, but their personal definitions were different then too.

Quote:
It wasn't subjective at all and did not depend on consensus. In other words, even when the majority agreed on exploitation, it didn't mean it was okay or right or correct.


For that society, yes, it did mean just that. That is why morals and cruelty are the subjective things they are.

Quote:
Quote:
Just because the "majority" agrees obviously does not mean that what is current practice is correct.
Quote:

In this case the majority belief would be the logical basis for the determination of any claim.



Quote:
Can you explain this statement? Are you saying that because the majority goes along with current practices, the majority must be correct in doing so? And must therefore be logical?


Yes, that is how the determinations work for a society. Unless and until the view of the society as a whole change the current accepted view is by definition correct for that society. There is no master list written in stone indicating what is supposed to be good or bad for all societies. If there were the determination would not be subjective.

Quote:
Housing thousands of animals in confinement for the purpose of doing business, subjecting these said entities to unnatural lives, castrating them without anesthetic, confining them for unreasonable time when their natural instinct is to wander, or at least get to feel the sun on their bodies ....


Is acceptable to the society if the society accepts it as correct. Just like it was acceptable for many societies to own human slaves from the earliest history through thousands of years until the relatively recent past.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:17 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Quote:
Then why do we have to imagine anything if there are factual references? How is current society basically corrupt without any references to support said claim?


Are you one of these individuals who have not questioned the current conditions?


Do you mean like the "mind control drugs" being sprayed in the chemtrails or the trend for democratic elections to often be purchased by the highest bidder through ads to fool the voters?

Quote:
I have met a few. Are you actually asking for some kind of peer-reviewed study and analysis of corruption?


When you claim the society is "basically corrupt", yes, I need to see something that supports such a broad generalization.

Quote:
You are seemingly a person who values some kind of academic justification and validation.


Evidence is our friend and broad assumptions can get us into trouble if we blindly accept them.

Quote:
Are you really asking for references in order that you may be able to discuss corruption?


The level of corruption claimed, yes.

Quote:
Can't you see it without needing to have some kind of academic body to do research and validate or measure it?


Evidently not to the same level that you do, which is why there was the request. I have no doubt that you believe the massive corruption exists, but not so much everyone else to the same degree.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:56 pm 
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The concept of this thing we call "society" is just that, a concept. It is an abstraction. "Society" isn't out there somewhere. Each individual makes up this thing we call society and society is made up of individuals. You and I are society.

There were many individuals who made up the society of that time who saw the cruelty of slavery but their voices were 'almost' mute in the face of the loud clamour of those who were less conscious and resolved to further their own interests in the face of such cruelty. Cruelty is cruelty regardless of the consensus. One must stand ALONE and not be so dependent on the authority of the experts and academicians and politicians and priests in order to navigate through life. One must not look to the consensus of 'society'. Stand alone, by yourself, if you dare.

Now we 'think' we are talking about pigs. But we are really talking about our treatment of each other, the environment, animals, over population, climate change, rape, murder, war, etc. We may take a fragment of the entire quagmire and discuss the different threads individually, but the threads are a manifestation, in whole, of an absolute crisis in our own consciousness. We are at the brink, and we cannot blame (other) animals for it, nor can we blame trees and plants. We have brought ourselves here.

The way that individuals treated other individuals in times of slavery, the way that individuals treat other individuals now, the way that individuals treat animals .... society is made up of individuals and I am one individual talking to another. Call it "society" if you wish but I prefer to talk in real terms rather than abstractions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:14 pm 
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Food for thought .... "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

I'm not going to quote the author because it doesn't matter. We are at the brink of destruction and you want to know what the research is? If it was peer reviewed? If "society" is in consensus? Who the "authority" is? Why not just find yourself a new priest?

You talk about subjectivity as if subjectivity was separate from the object.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:16 am 
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oops


Last edited by animal-friendly on Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:51 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Quote:
Then why do we have to imagine anything if there are factual references? How is current society basically corrupt without any references to support said claim?


Are you one of these individuals who have not questioned the current conditions?


Do you mean like the "mind control drugs"

Nope! Who said anything about drugs?

being sprayed in the chemtrails or the trend for democratic elections to often be purchased by the highest bidder through ads to fool the voters?

Who said anything about chemtrails?

I didn't say anything about such things.






Quote:
I have met a few. Are you actually asking for some kind of peer-reviewed study and analysis of corruption?


When you claim the society is "basically corrupt", yes, I need to see something that supports such a broad generalization.

Quote:
You are seemingly a person who values some kind of academic justification and validation.


Evidence is our friend and broad assumptions can get us into trouble if we blindly accept them.

Quote:
Are you really asking for references in order that you may be able to discuss corruption?


The level of corruption claimed, yes.

Quote:
Can't you see it without needing to have some kind of academic body to do research and validate or measure it?


Evidently not to the same level that you do, which is why there was the request. I have no doubt that you believe the massive corruption exists, but not so much everyone else to the same degree.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:20 am 
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oops again. Just deleting repetition.


Last edited by animal-friendly on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:53 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
The concept of this thing we call "society" is just that, a concept. It is an abstraction. "Society" isn't out there somewhere. Each individual makes up this thing we call society and society is made up of individuals. You and I are society.


This is partially correct. Society is out there right now because, as you say, you and I are part of society.

Quote:
There were many individuals who made up the society of that time who saw the cruelty of slavery but their voices were 'almost' mute in the face of the loud clamour of those who were less conscious and resolved to further their own interests in the face of such cruelty.


Yes, there MAY have been many individuals who disagreed with slavery over the thousands of years for which slavery was practised. I do not beleive that is an assumption which can be supported by any factual reference since even the religious works of the early periods supported it. One could posit the slaves probably disagreed, but that would only be the period during which they were slaves themselves.


Quote:
Cruelty is cruelty regardless of the consensus.


No. is it a personal belief at that point.

Quote:
One must stand ALONE and not be so dependent on the authority of the experts and academicians and politicians and priests in order to navigate through life. One must not look to the consensus of 'society'. Stand alone, by yourself, if you dare.


It still only makes it a personal belief and not a fact. Just as the few who claim homosexuality is a lifestyle, or try to control women because they believe that it the way it should be are personal opinions. If a sufficient number of people hold that belief, it becomes the definition for that society. You may disagree based on your personal opinion, but the weight of the other personal opinions will overwhelm that one belief. Unless and until the society starts to change their personal beliefs to agree with you, that is the fact of life for that society.

Quote:
Now we 'think' we are talking about pigs. But we are really talking about our treatment of each other, the environment, animals, over population, climate change, rape, murder, war, etc.


No, I know that this covers all of society's beliefs and morals. It always has and always will.

Quote:
We may take a fragment of the entire quagmire and discuss the different threads individually, but the threads are a manifestation, in whole, of an absolute crisis in our own consciousness. We are at the brink, and we cannot blame (other) animals for it, nor can we blame trees and plants. We have brought ourselves here.


We can and do, but the fact remains that all of the threads hold the same truth. That truth is the concensus of the society determines the beliefs and morals for that society as there are no absoulute morals of beliefs.

Quote:
The way that individuals treated other individuals in times of slavery, the way that individuals treat other individuals now, the way that individuals treat animals .... society is made up of individuals and I am one individual talking to another. Call it "society" if you wish but I prefer to talk in real terms rather than abstractions.


Talking about the belief in society IS talking in real terms. The abstraction in this would be the personal opinion which differs from that of society. This does not mean this abstraction cannot become a reality, but only after it is accepted by a sufficient percentage of the society to make it so. You may believe it is wrong to wear the color blue, but the society does not. The reality is there is nothing wrong with wearing the color blue unless and until enough of society hold that belief.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:23 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The cruelty claim? Is it only a "claim"?

Quote:
Yes, it is a claim. Cruelty is a subjective determination so what you believe may be cruel is not what the consensus of the society believes is cruel. In this case the majority belief would be the logical basis for the determination of any claim.


"Cruelty is a subjective determination"

Sure Wayne.


Glad that you understand .... or pretend to understand, but more likely do not understand and are trying to be sarcastic.

I wasn't "trying" to be sarcastic. I was being sarcastic. Sarcasm is usually an expression of frustrations and aggression. Homer Simpson expresses it as "Doh". In this instance, I will allow Homer to express a certain level of frustration that only Lisa might actually understand. Lisa would know that there is no subject/object here ...... Cruelty is not subjective, because the subject is not different from the object.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:38 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The concept of this thing we call "society" is just that, a concept. It is an abstraction. "Society" isn't out there somewhere. Each individual makes up this thing we call society and society is made up of individuals. You and I are society.


Quote:
This is partially correct. Society is out there right now because, as you say, you and I are part of society.


Yes, so this thing we call "society" is an abstraction and only true or real as we have imagined it. It is a concept and is therefore 'real' but not true. It is a fact, but only because we have placed meaning upon it. Is not reality. It is like nation states. They are a fact ... borders are a fact, but they are not real. We made them up. They are a concept. In actual terms, there are no such thing as borders. Just as this thing called "society" is. If we (you?) could put aside concepts and abstractions, we might have a conversation.

Quote:
There were many individuals who made up the society of that time who saw the cruelty of slavery but their voices were 'almost' mute in the face of the loud clamour of those who were less conscious and resolved to further their own interests in the face of such cruelty.


Quote:
Yes, there MAY have been many individuals who disagreed with slavery over the thousands of years for which slavery was practised.


As there are now. This is about NOW.


Quote:
do not believe that is an assumption which can be supported by any factual reference since even the religious works of the early periods supported it. One could posit the slaves probably disagreed, but that would only be the period during which they were slaves themselves.


Of course Wayne. Is this not a Homer instance? May I say "doh" ????

Quote:
".... since even the religious works of the earlier years supported it .... "



Which is why one should not depend on religious authority, or any other .....


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:55 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The cruelty claim? Is it only a "claim"?


Quote:
Yes, it is a claim. Cruelty is a subjective determination so what you believe may be cruel is not what the consensus of the society believes is cruel. In this case the majority belief would be the logical basis for the determination of any claim.


animal-friendly wrote:
"Cruelty is a subjective determination"

Sure Wayne.


Glad that you understand .... or pretend to understand, but more likely do not understand and are trying to be sarcastic.

I wasn't "trying" to be sarcastic. I was being sarcastic. Sarcasm is usually an expression of frustrations and aggression. Homer Simpson expresses it as "Doh". In this instance, I will allow Homer to express a certain level of frustration that only Lisa might actually understand. Lisa would know that there is no subject/object here ...... Cruelty is not subjective, because the subject is not different from the object. [/quote]

The act was an attempt because sarcasm does not work well when one is wrong. Lisa would know that and she would know you are wrong, but Homer might be persuaded to agree with you by the use of mixed meanings.


http://www.diffen.com/difference/Object ... Subjective

Subjective information or writing is based on personal opinions, interpretations, points of view, emotions and judgment. It is often considered ill-suited for scenarios like news reporting or decision making in business or politics. Objective information or analysis is fact-based, measurable and observable.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:07 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The concept of this thing we call "society" is just that, a concept. It is an abstraction. "Society" isn't out there somewhere. Each individual makes up this thing we call society and society is made up of individuals. You and I are society.


This is partially correct. Society is out there right now because, as you say, you and I are part of society.


Yes, so this thing we call "society" is an abstraction and only true or real as we have imagined it. It is a concept and is therefore 'real' but not true. It is a fact, but only because we have placed meaning upon it. Is not reality. It is like nation states. They are a fact ... borders are a fact, but they are not real. We made them up. They are a concept. In actual terms, there are no such thing as borders. Just as this thing called "society" is. If we (you?) could put aside concepts and abstractions, we might have a conversation.


No, society is a reality unless we are an abstract. You claim we are part of society so unless we are not real society is a reality. There are also borders. Should you try to cross the "abstract" border between North Korea and South Korea you would clear see that fact. Borders are arbitrary but not abstract. Subject and object are different from subjective and objective too. It seems the nuances of the English language are being lost in part of thsi discussion.

Quote:
Quote:
There were many individuals who made up the society of that time who saw the cruelty of slavery but their voices were 'almost' mute in the face of the loud clamour of those who were less conscious and resolved to further their own interests in the face of such cruelty.


Quote:
Yes, there MAY have been many individuals who disagreed with slavery over the thousands of years for which slavery was practised.


As there are now. This is about NOW.[/quote]

NOW only indicates the CURRENT SUBJECTIVE view. You were claiming cruelty to be OBJECTIVE, which would mean that is had to be the same at ANY time and it was not.


Quote:
Quote:
do not believe that is an assumption which can be supported by any factual reference since even the religious works of the early periods supported it. One could posit the slaves probably disagreed, but that would only be the period during which they were slaves themselves.


Of course Wayne. Is this not a Homer instance? May I say "doh" ????


So you now agree on the subjective nature of cruelty since slavery is now considered cruel but was not then?

Quote:
Quote:
".... since even the religious works of the earlier years supported it .... "



Which is why one should not depend on religious authority, or any other .....


Because the subjective nature of definitions allow for them to change depending on the group and time period. Odd how you now give support to my position after claiming it was incorrect. O:)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:41 am 
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The concept of this thing we call "society" is just that, a concept. It is an abstraction. "Society" isn't out there somewhere. Each individual makes up this thing we call society and society is made up of individuals. You and I are society.

Quote:
This is partially correct. Society is out there right now because, as you say, you and I are part of society.


Only if you hold it as a belief. In the end, you are an individual in spite of the belief in society which remains a concept for individuals such as yourself. Your individuality is not different from the individuality of others.

This thing we call "society" is an abstraction and only true or real as we have imagined it. It is a concept and is therefore 'real' but not true. It is a fact, but only because we have placed meaning upon it. Is not reality. It is like nation states. They are a fact ... borders are a fact, but they are not real. We made them up. They are a concept. In actual terms, there are no such thing as borders.

Quote:
No, society is a reality unless we are an abstract. You claim we are part of society so unless we are not real society is a reality.


No. Nature is not a concept and as human beings are part of nature, we are real too. Society is a concept but mammals are not. Animals are real as are humans. We are real. Trees are real. Flowers are real. The earth is real. Ideas are not real. Ideas make up ideologies which are just that ... ideologies. Capitalism and communism are not real. They are ideologies. We also made up religion and the economic structure. Borders are real because we have made them factual. It is a fact that borders exist, but they cannot generally be seen from space. So they are a fact because we have made them so, but they are not true or real. Just as we have also made nationalities factual, but they are not true or real. There are no such thing as nationalities, except that we have made them a fact ..... for us. There are no such things as nationalities. We made it up. Nationalities are conceptual as are borders.

There is no language, English or otherwise, that can make ideology reality. Language itself is not reality; it is just language which is made up of letters which are symbols in themselves. Symbols only attempt to represent that which is. But we tend to get lost in them.

Quote:
I do not believe that is an assumption which can be supported by any factual reference



There you go again .......

Quote:
One could posit the slaves probably disagreed, but that would only be the period during which they were slaves themselves.


Of course. I could have been a slave. You could have been one. We would have both disagreed to being abused.

Quote:
So you now agree on the subjective nature of cruelty since slavery is now considered cruel but was not then?


There is no subjectivity in cruelty, only in the manipulation of language. If I were the subject, and you the object.... There is no subject/object .... just us.



Quote:
Quote:
".... since even the religious works of the earlier years supported it .... "


Which is why one should not depend on religious authority, or any other .....


Because the subjective nature of definitions allow for them to change depending on the group and time period. Odd how you now give support to my position after claiming it was incorrect. O:)[/quote]

Are you dependent on the authority of religion? Will you simply ride the tides of whatever everyone else is saying? Seems so. would you have done so 300 hundred years ago? If not, please express yourself. I'm not interested in positions, either yours nor mine. Not interested in scoring points.


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