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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:20 pm 
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And if the dog was actually thirsty, s/he would have drank the entire bowl instead of looking around for kibbles. I just did the experiment with my own dog. She sniffed the water and didn't take one lick of it because she was not thirsty. The pigs in the video tell a much different story.

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Not really since the video would be edited to cast the best light on the project and even then there were many pigs who were not drinking but were curious about what the people were doing. You want to believe and thus you will. I look at the evidence and do not see enough to support their claim.


Yes of course, the video must have been edited to show only those pigs who were actually thirsty (I think the video showed two thirsty pigs?). The other pigs were probably not thirsty at all which is why "Toronto Pig Save" edited them out. Despite the fact that July 2013 was a heat wave in Toronto with temperatures soaring between 90 and 100 degrees, I'm pretty sure the group had to do some fancy editing to show ONLY those two pigs were were voraciously thirsty. :crazy:

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Now that we agree on this I suppose we can move on now.


Yes, because 100 degree temperatures never made any of us thirsty.
We will agree to disagree.
Moving on.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:02 pm 
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What bird was it that will drink itself to death? A turkey?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:58 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
What bird was it that will drink itself to death? A turkey?


That is the old wive's tale about domesticated turkey, but it is not true. They may become frightened in a thunderstorm and kill each other or themselves in a panic, but they do not drink the rainwater until they drown.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:35 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
What bird was it that will drink itself to death? A turkey?


That is the old wive's tale about domesticated turkey, but it is not true. They may become frightened in a thunderstorm and kill each other or themselves in a panic, but they do not drink the rainwater until they drown.


I see. So where's the study on propensity of porcines to consume water given varied levels of hydration and ambient temperature? 2 factor. Should be simple enough. :crazy:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:50 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
What bird was it that will drink itself to death? A turkey?


That is the old wive's tale about domesticated turkey, but it is not true. They may become frightened in a thunderstorm and kill each other or themselves in a panic, but they do not drink the rainwater until they drown.


I see. So where's the study on propensity of porcines to consume water given varied levels of hydration and ambient temperature? 2 factor. Should be simple enough. :crazy:


That is not needed as we have a basic general assumption from which to base a conclusion upon ... or another "old wive's tale" if you prefer. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:02 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
What bird was it that will drink itself to death? A turkey?


That is the old wive's tale about domesticated turkey, but it is not true. They may become frightened in a thunderstorm and kill each other or themselves in a panic, but they do not drink the rainwater until they drown.


I see. So where's the study on propensity of porcines to consume water given varied levels of hydration and ambient temperature? 2 factor. Should be simple enough. :crazy:


There are studies regarding a pig's temperature limits and their propensity to consume water. it is simple enough.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:41 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:

There are studies regarding a pig's temperature limits and their propensity to consume water. it is simple enough.


Ok, lets look at the data. This happened in Burlington, Ont. in June of 2015. according to the record the hottest day of the month was about 80 degrees F

https://weathttps://weatherspark.com/hi ... rio-Canada


Which is at the upper level of the comfort zone, not even in the overheating zone if you average the conditions between still and moving equally, which is very conservative all the way around. Data taken from the first information in the search engine listing Table 1 Dry sows, multiple, still, and draughty air speed.

http://www.prairieswine.com/pdf/1886.pdf

It also states one of the first signs of heat stress is panting, which is clearly not evident in any of the pigs in the video.

How to Recognize a Heat Stressed Pig

Information in the literature regarding ECT for all physiological states of the pig is scarce. The reason for this is because of the lack of research in the area and the complexity of factors involved in determining ECT. Table 1 gives a guide to values of ECT for pigs of different productive stages.

Typically pigs breath at a rate between 20 and 30 breaths per minute. One of the first signs of heat stress is that the pig will pant. The higher the panting rate, the higher the temperature above ECT.


So the pigs were showing no signs of heat stress according to the video. Without knowing the water intake prior to loading, how long it had been since loading, or what the actual ambient conditions were there is no way to know the water consumption differential for these non-heat stressed pigs.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:45 am 
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Hope it doesn't hurt you that I don't eat animals.

Do as you will.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:28 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Hope it doesn't hurt you that I don't eat animals.


No, why would it? Does it hurt you that others do eat animals?

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Do as you will.


A good approach in many cases.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:01 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:

There are studies regarding a pig's temperature limits and their propensity to consume water. it is simple enough.


Quote:
Ok, lets look at the data. This happened in Burlington, Ont. in June of 2015. according to the record the hottest day of the month was about 80 degrees F

https://weathttps://weatherspark.com/hi ... rio-Canada


Which is at the upper level of the comfort zone, not even in the overheating zone if you average the conditions between still and moving equally, which is very conservative all the way around. Data taken from the first information in the search engine listing Table 1 Dry sows, multiple, still, and draughty air speed.

http://www.prairieswine.com/pdf/1886.pdf


Quote:
So they (the pigs) were in the upper level of the comfort zone. In other words uncomfortable. Hot day, caught in traffic, and thirsty. A pig doesn't drink water unless it is thirsty. Neither does a dog. Or a cat for that matter.

It also states one of the first signs of heat stress is panting, which is clearly not evident in any of the pigs in the video.

How to Recognize a Heat Stressed Pig

Quote:
The pigs were in a truck with tiny windows. We could not see the majority of the pigs in the truck on that hot day. The pigs who were lucky enough to be close to the tiny window slats were thirsty and gratefully accepted the water given. They guzzled it. If the pigs close enough to the window guzzled the water offered, how were the rest of the pigs doing? Is it rational and sane to hazard a guess? If the pigs in the video were obviously extremely thirsty (as shown), how do you think the pigs who were not able to get to the slat windows were doing? How could they even manoeuvre themselves to the window where water was being offered when they were in such crowded conditions?

Or was it just a freak coincidence that ONLY the pigs near the slat window were desperately thirsty and thus guzzled the water offered and the other pigs were all quite comfortable and not thirsty at all?

We don't know how long those particular pigs had been in transport, but Canadian regulations allow them to be in transport for up to 52 hours without food, water or rest.


Information in the literature regarding ECT for all physiological states of the pig is scarce. The reason for this is because of the lack of research in the area and the complexity of factors involved in determining ECT. Table 1 gives a guide to values of ECT for pigs of different productive stages.

Quote:
Yes. I saw that.


Typically pigs breath at a rate between 20 and 30 breaths per minute. One of the first signs of heat stress is that the pig will pant. The higher the panting rate, the higher the temperature above ECT.


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Yes. And pigs deal with heat by rolling around in dirt to cover and protect themselves from temperatures. Hard to do in a truck loaded with a significant number of animals. Time is money. Pigs are a product. Yet they are smart, curious animals too. Probably in your estimation, and in others too, their sentience and innate intelligence and experience as breathing, living entities has been over looked because they serve us as food animals. They have become product. Everyone needs to make a living, right?


So the pigs were showing no signs of heat stress according to the video. Without knowing the water intake prior to loading, how long it had been since loading, or what the actual ambient conditions were there is no way to know the water consumption differential for these non-heat stressed pigs.


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Nice quote. Thank you for the information. I already had it, but there's the emphasis.


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Current transportation regulations in Canada allow animals to be transported for up to 52 hours without food, water or rest, and trucks are poorly equipped for meeting animals’ needs during transport. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) has for years been reviewing these regulations, but despite widespread public support for reducing allowable transport times and making other urgently needed changes, it is not clear if or when the CFIA will move to improve the regulations.

Some examples of conditions where animals must not be transported include (but are not limited to):

an inability to stand without assistance or to move without being dragged or carried;
a fracture that considerably hampers mobility or is likely to cause severe pain when the animal is being loaded or transported;
dehydration;
exhaustion;
shock or impending death;
a suspected or confirmed nervous system disorder;
fever;
uterine prolapse;
a hernia that impedes movement, is painful on palpation, touches the ground when the animal is standing in its natural position, or has an open skin wound, ulceration, or obvious infection.

All other healthy pigs can therefore be transported for up to 52 hours without food, water. or rest. (In Canada).

How would that journey be for you? You would certainly survive it if you were healthy. Your comfort levels wouldn't really matter if you are to end up as food anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:52 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:


So the pigs were showing no signs of heat stress according to the video. Without knowing the water intake prior to loading, how long it had been since loading, or what the actual ambient conditions were there is no way to know the water consumption differential for these non-heat stressed pigs.


Showing no signs in the video means they were showing NO SIGNS of stress. As for the ambient conditions we know that there was not excessive heat recorded in the city during the entire month ... I posted the link.

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Nice quote. Thank you for the information. I already had it, but there's the emphasis.


So you knew there were no overly high temperatures and you still tried to mislead us?

Quote:
Current transportation regulations in Canada allow animals to be transported for up to 52 hours without food, water or rest, and trucks are poorly equipped for meeting animals’ needs during transport. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) has for years been reviewing these regulations, but despite widespread public support for reducing allowable transport times and making other urgently needed changes, it is not clear if or when the CFIA will move to improve the regulations.

Some examples of conditions where animals must not be transported include (but are not limited to):

an inability to stand without assistance or to move without being dragged or carried;
a fracture that considerably hampers mobility or is likely to cause severe pain when the animal is being loaded or transported;
dehydration;
exhaustion;
shock or impending death;
a suspected or confirmed nervous system disorder;
fever;
uterine prolapse;
a hernia that impedes movement, is painful on palpation, touches the ground when the animal is standing in its natural position, or has an open skin wound, ulceration, or obvious infection.

All other healthy pigs can therefore be transported for up to 52 hours without food, water. or rest. (In Canada).

How would that journey be for you? You would certainly survive it if you were healthy. Your comfort levels wouldn't really matter if you are to end up as food anyway.


Now you move to try for distractions because the video misrepresentation failed? That is a sad move.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:31 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:


So the pigs were showing no signs of heat stress according to the video. Without knowing the water intake prior to loading, how long it had been since loading, or what the actual ambient conditions were there is no way to know the water consumption differential for these non-heat stressed pigs.


Showing no signs in the video means they were showing NO SIGNS of stress. As for the ambient conditions we know that there was not excessive heat recorded in the city during the entire month ... I posted the link.

Quote:
Nice quote. Thank you for the information. I already had it, but there's the emphasis.


So you knew there were no overly high temperatures and you still tried to mislead us?

What does "overly high temperatures" mean? How could I mislead you when I don't even know what you are getting at?
You want to bring in scientific fact, which is reasonable;. But thirst is also a measure of distress and we saw evidence of thirsty animals. If these animals are thirsty, I betchya all of them are.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:58 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:

Quote:
So you knew there were no overly high temperatures and you still tried to mislead us?


What does "overly high temperatures" mean?


The temperature maximum was 80, which is warm but not hot for most discussions concerning weather impact.

Quote:
How could I mislead you when I don't even know what you are getting at?


You said you had the data I posted which clearly showed the temperatures were not that high at any time that month.

Quote:
You want to bring in scientific fact, which is reasonable;. But thirst is also a measure of distress and we saw evidence of thirsty animals.


Thirst is a measure of distress? No. Distress would go beyond merely being thirsty which is the type of misleading claim I referenced.

Quote:
If these animals are thirsty, I betchya all of them are.


Except for the ones in the video not pushing to get to the water, of course. :-

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:36 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:

Quote:
So you knew there were no overly high temperatures and you still tried to mislead us?


What does "overly high temperatures" mean?


The temperature maximum was 80, which is warm but not hot for most discussions concerning weather impact.

Quote:
How could I mislead you when I don't even know what you are getting at?


You said you had the data I posted which clearly showed the temperatures were not that high at any time that month.

Quote:
You want to bring in scientific fact, which is reasonable;. But thirst is also a measure of distress and we saw evidence of thirsty animals.


Thirst is a measure of distress? No. Distress would go beyond merely being thirsty which is the type of misleading claim I referenced.

Quote:
If these animals are thirsty, I betchya all of them are.


Except for the ones in the video not pushing to get to the water, of course. :-


There are pigs pushing for water. Why is that? Might it be because they are thirsty? Might you be thirsty too, after such a long journey? Wouldn't it be nice if you could access the water? These are actual sentient beings. Like us, they exist too. And how uncomfortable is it to travel for long distances without food or water in heat waves? Even Canadian ones? Yes, even Canada gets heat waves.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:15 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:

Quote:
So you knew there were no overly high temperatures and you still tried to mislead us?


What does "overly high temperatures" mean?


The temperature maximum was 80, which is warm but not hot for most discussions concerning weather impact.

Quote:
How could I mislead you when I don't even know what you are getting at?


You said you had the data I posted which clearly showed the temperatures were not that high at any time that month.

Quote:
You want to bring in scientific fact, which is reasonable;. But thirst is also a measure of distress and we saw evidence of thirsty animals.


Thirst is a measure of distress? No. Distress would go beyond merely being thirsty which is the type of misleading claim I referenced.

Quote:
If these animals are thirsty, I betchya all of them are.


Except for the ones in the video not pushing to get to the water, of course. :-


Can you imagine yourself there? You may not be able to get yourself to the outer limits of where water is available. The ones who are lucky enough to be able to access water, guzzle it.


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