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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:25 pm 
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Donnie Mac Leod wrote:
http://thesop.org/index.php?article=12328


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In accordance with the truce, Hamas and other Palestinian militants agree to cease rocket attacks on Israel. In turn, Israel will suspend military raids and air strikes on the Gaza Strip.



What are the odds that Hamas will be the ones to break this cease fire in the future???


Hamas are no angels and I don't think anyone here is defending them, certainly not me. Any international agency with anything to do with human rights, that I have heard, has stated that Hamas has committed war crimes too,

But Israel claims the moral high ground, calling the IDF the most moral army on earth...yet there is sufficient evidence for many international aid agencies to call for investigation of their war crimes...blowing the crap out of densely populated civilian areas in itself is a biggy...there is lots of lit out there on it for anyone interested in both sides of the story.

Israel complains that Arabs, and Palestinians will not acknowledge their right to exist, yet they do not acknowledge the Palestinians right to exist...

its gotta stop somewhere...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:58 pm 
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Donnie Mac Leod wrote:
Cowards fight their battles among woman and children and propagandists use the deaths of those children to incite more hatred..


you are correct, but its a tactic used by both sides...as this link will show...

this is a few years old but it seems to have a common theme
Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm
Amnesty slams Israel 'war crimes'

…Amnesty also says Israel has continued to use Palestinians as "human shields" during military operations, "forcing them to carry out tasks that endangered their lives", despite an injunction by Israel's high court banning the practice.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:11 pm 
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dog breath wrote:
Donnie Mac Leod wrote:
http://thesop.org/index.php?article=12328


Quote:
In accordance with the truce, Hamas and other Palestinian militants agree to cease rocket attacks on Israel. In turn, Israel will suspend military raids and air strikes on the Gaza Strip.



What are the odds that Hamas will be the ones to break this cease fire in the future???


Hamas are no angels and I don't think anyone here is defending them, certainly not me. Any international agency with anything to do with human rights, that I have heard, has stated that Hamas has committed war crimes too,

But Israel claims the moral high ground, calling the IDF the most moral army on earth...yet there is sufficient evidence for many international aid agencies to call for investigation of their war crimes...blowing the crap out of densely populated civilian areas in itself is a biggy...there is lots of lit out there on it for anyone interested in both sides of the story.

Israel complains that Arabs, and Palestinians will not acknowledge their right to exist, yet they do not acknowledge the Palestinians right to exist...

its gotta stop somewhere...




In fact many Palestinians do exist within the borders of Israel. A long forgotten fact about Israel's desire for the Olive branch. They offered it and many Palestinians live unmolested within Israel's borders. However the ones that chose Hamas , elected them and allowed them to fire rockets from localities within the civilian population are testament to why the Gaza Palestinians are not the peace seekers within Israel's borders.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:22 pm 
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I didn't condem all muslims I said islam is rooted in violence because it is. Thats not "islamophobic", its reality and has nothing to do with fear.


of course here again, there is another side...

its pretty safe to say that Christianity is rooted in violence too, think crusades, think Inquisition, think catholic/protestant purges, think witch trials,think pogroms and other systematic persecution of Jews by Christians for the last 2000 years...if this is the criteria, then perhaps Muslims should be just as wary of Christians ?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:38 pm 
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dog breath wrote:
its pretty safe to say that Christianity is rooted in violence too, think crusades, think Inquisition, think catholic/protestant purges,


But you'd be incorrect to say that. Though there were atrocities, the Crusades were in response to muslim invasion. The prophet was also not a murderer, child molester, rapist or thief. The parallels muslim apologists like to make just aren't there.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:28 pm 
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dog breath wrote:
Quote:
I didn't condem all muslims I said islam is rooted in violence because it is. Thats not "islamophobic", its reality and has nothing to do with fear.


of course here again, there is another side...

its pretty safe to say that Christianity is rooted in violence too, think crusades, think Inquisition, think catholic/protestant purges, think witch trials,think pogroms and other systematic persecution of Jews by Christians for the last 2000 years...if this is the criteria, then perhaps Muslims should be just as wary of Christians ?



In fact the Muslim Religion had reached right into Europe and was turned back when Europe finialy had enough of their invasion. Vlad the Impaler cut his teeth on Muslim invaders that had invaded Romania. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_III_the_Impaler

Real History of Muslim Religion is very much steeped in blood of folk that who only crime was they were classed as infidels. Even in modern times the Jihad are fighting with every other Religion such as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheist Russia & have bombed carnage around the world.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:58 am 
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dog breath wrote:
Quote:
I didn't condem all muslims I said islam is rooted in violence because it is. Thats not "islamophobic", its reality and has nothing to do with fear.


of course here again, there is another side...

its pretty safe to say that Christianity is rooted in violence too, think crusades, think Inquisition, think catholic/protestant purges, think witch trials,think pogroms and other systematic persecution of Jews by Christians for the last 2000 years...if this is the criteria, then perhaps Muslims should be just as wary of Christians ?



Think that my wife is a member of her Roman Catholic Church Choir & her Parish Council and I am on the board of managers plus an Elder in my Presbyterian Church of Canada. Although we love our individual Branch of Christianity, we both class ourselves as CHRISTIANS first because we have entered a Century that Jihad terrorists, want no part of. Christianity is much closer to Christ's teaching of love thy neighbor today then it has been at any previous point in History as proven in our home. Yet it still gets slammed for the Historical acts that are so similar to the Muslim Jihad which thinks forcing Religion is Godly. Such hatred as Jihad holds for the Free Choice which God offered both of Abraham's children, is being overshadowed by the Devil's jealously. When Hamas & Hezbollah argue that Israel should be wiped of the map it isn't the land but a people that they wipe out. That is their stated goal and they have taken every opportunity plus every propaganda to make the lives of Israeli people unbearable. In so doing they have increased the hatred of all Arab citizens throughout the Middle East because "Israeli dogs," are so adept at defending themselves , despite it's low number of people and size of lands.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:42 am 
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Quote:
When Hamas & Hezbollah argue that Israel should be wiped of the map it isn't the land but a people that they wipe out. That is their stated goal and they have taken every opportunity plus every propaganda to make the lives of Israeli people unbearable. In so doing they have increased the hatred of all Arab citizens throughout the Middle East because "Israeli dogs," are so adept at defending themselves , despite it's low number of people and size of lands.



yet, Israel is doing everthing it can to wipe Palestinian Arabs of the map...and Israel would be non-existant if not for US arms and $$. visit the Ifamericansknew website, promoted by American Jews who openly identify themselves...and who openly criticise Israeli aggression. And doing that does not make one pro-hamas or an Arab apologist as some people put it.

can you not see the disparity of the situation? sling shots againts tanks...

why do arabs make Israelis miserable? not because they want to convert them, because they want their land back!


Most arabs would be satisfied with Israel at 1967 borders...shut down the extremists on both sides and this could happen.

yet, I'll throw kerosene on the fire and add this simple yet very loaded question ,why does Israel have the RIGHT to Palestinian land, and the arabs not?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Many Arab countries refuse to accept Palestinians as refuges because they have too high a chance of having Jewish blood in their veins. Israel is not recognized as a country by most Arab countries. Almost all the leaders in Palestine (like Arafat) were born in a different country... they obviously moved to Palestine for reasons other then a love of the people there (who are often refered to as half-breeds) and so you can be fairly sure the elimination of Jews was part of that. The Koran is full of instructions on the elimination of Jews and Christians with a few mentions of other religions... you can be sure that devout followers of what the Koran says are going to be looking for infidels to kill.


Last edited by Ann Vole on Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Ann Vole wrote:
Many Arab countries refuse to accept Palestinians as refuges because they have too high a chance of having Jewish blood in their veins. Israel is not recognized as a country but most Arab countries. Almost all the leaders in Palestine (like Arafat) were born in a different country... they obviously moved to Palestine for reasons other then a love of the people there and you can be fairly sure the elimination of Jews was part of that. The Koran is full of instructions on the elimination of Jews and Christians with a few mentions of other religions... you can be sure that devout followers of what the Koran says are going to be looking for infidels to kill.



And leaders like Arafat, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or the Muslim Clerics in the Arab World who are looking for more power will continue to add gasoline to that fire and thus prop up their own secular & Religious Power. It is very important for us to weigh the propaganda against the truth or we will be as duped as the poor folks whom were bilked by Arafat and his henchmen. At this point in History. The Arab Jihad is in violation of humanity around the world. They use violence upon the Infidel Christians, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, other sects within Islam, Atheists of Russia and I wonder just who is left for them to hate or kill. Israel might not be perfect but they are one long jump closer to perfect then the War mongers of Muslim Jihad offers a Civilized World. How many Journalists , raped women ,school teachers and children have you seen video taped getting their throats cut open or their heads lopped off by Israel????

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:04 pm 
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ADMIN NOTE: Numerous posts by more than one poster have been removed due to violation of the forum rule on copyright infringement. If you must quote a source, quote no more than two sentences of content.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:15 am 
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Donnie said to weed out the propaganda ...that's an excellent idea and everyone should follow that. Ask yourself where you get your information? who's posts it on the internet? who has researched and written it? I get mine from a multitude of sources (mostly American) that post news items from around the world. Many of my sources are Jewish as well. I have found numerous sites the expound the evils of islam , but they are typically unidentified sources, or non-islamic and likely anti islamic sources, pro israel.

I typically try to prove myself wrong, to confirm if i'm right or not...you should all do this, for all issues...IMO.

There are numerous examples of islamic violence around the world today, alot of negativity, alot of harsh, controlling and violent regimes...but take a step back. many of them are basically backward tribes from the hills (Taliban) that have been fighting foreign invaders for longer than they can remember and fighting other tribes to boot...others are also stuck in the dark ages (Nigeria, Sudan), but probably also dealing with foreign interferece in post colonial era...think about multi national corporations scouring africa, and the middle east for oil, controlling local governments...

for all the bad examples of islamic regimes, and movements, I think that most of them can be traced back to foreign meddling giving rise to reactionary extremist (nationalistic) movements in response, and many are directly and openly responding to the Palestinian situation.

What Right does Israel have to the land of Palestine that the Palestinian Arabs do not have? Its a political reality that Israel exists and will not go away, its a 'fait accompli' a 'done deal', but they are not interested in a two state solution, they want it all. Palestinians will settle for a two state solution and hamas, hezbollah , have always said so (according to my sources) but the western media for whatever reason, does not report this. Yassar Arafat was very close to signing off on a two state solution. The Prime Minister of Isreal (name? ) was assinated by a right wing extremist, because he was leaning toward a two state solution...

read Jimmy Carter on the subject, Rabbi Michael Lerner, Noam Chomsky, and many more US scholars who see both sides of the debacle...

I'll ask you this, for all the examples of islamic violence around the world, can you say there are not equally abundant examples of Christian violence? US bombing apghan wedding party killing 40-50 people because they were targeting a suspected taliban leader...this is a typical headline in news around the world...Jewish violence ...Israeli settlers beating elderly palestinians, children, on their way to school, ripping up olive groves...The illegal invasion of Iraq because of the weapons of Mass destruction that were fictional. Al quida did not operate openly in Iraq prior to the war, but it does now...

What do you folks think of Amnesty International? The International Red Cross? are these pro-hamas apologists? why do they accuse Israel of committing egregious war crimes by indiscriminant use of phosporous bombs, cluster bombs in heavily populated areas?

You people have listened to the anti islamic propaganda to the point that you don't care about 400 Palestinian children killed by 'jewish' violence...or that's certainly how you come across.

There are numerous Christian churches in Canada and the US , and around the world who see what' happening for what it is and are calling for 'divestiture' from Israel...stop supporting this violent, racist regime...

yes, racist. Tell me I'm wrong, and explain it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Donnie Mac Leod wrote:
dog breath wrote:
Quote:
I didn't condem all muslims I said islam is rooted in violence because it is. Thats not "islamophobic", its reality and has nothing to do with fear.


of course here again, there is another side...

its pretty safe to say that Christianity is rooted in violence too, think crusades, think Inquisition, think catholic/protestant purges, think witch trials,think pogroms and other systematic persecution of Jews by Christians for the last 2000 years...if this is the criteria, then perhaps Muslims should be just as wary of Christians ?



In fact the Muslim Religion had reached right into Europe and was turned back when Europe finialy had enough of their invasion. Vlad the Impaler cut his teeth on Muslim invaders that had invaded Romania. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_III_the_Impaler

Real History of Muslim Religion is very much steeped in blood of folk that who only crime was they were classed as infidels. Even in modern times the Jihad are fighting with every other Religion such as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheist Russia & have bombed carnage around the world.


hmmm, the Ottoman Empire is what Vlad the Impaler was fighting, and it happened to be muslim...I find it interesting that you would use this example to show Muslim blood letting. Vlad the Impaler, Christian, the inspiration of the Dracula legends...(There was also alot of Christian on Christian in-fighting going on in Vlad's lifetime too...that's the nature of the middle ages Europe...)

he impaled 20,000 turks on one occasion...but its the muslims who are blood thirsty? or maybe they had it coming to them?

the history of man kind is steeped in blood shed, and I don't think that Christians, muslims or Jews can claim to have any less bloody history than the other...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm 
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dog breath wrote:
Donnie said to weed out the propaganda ...that's an excellent idea and everyone should follow that. Ask yourself where you get your information? who's posts it on the internet? who has researched and written it? I get mine from a multitude of sources (mostly American) that post news items from around the world. Many of my sources are Jewish as well. I have found numerous sites the expound the evils of islam , but they are typically unidentified sources, or non-islamic and likely anti islamic sources, pro israel.


People need to be honest about what they want the answer to be. Most unwittingly look for information that supports what they want to believe.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:01 pm 
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rpedog wrote:
dog breath wrote:
Donnie said to weed out the propaganda ...that's an excellent idea and everyone should follow that. Ask yourself where you get your information? who's posts it on the internet? who has researched and written it? I get mine from a multitude of sources (mostly American) that post news items from around the world. Many of my sources are Jewish as well. I have found numerous sites the expound the evils of islam , but they are typically unidentified sources, or non-islamic and likely anti islamic sources, pro israel.


People need to be honest about what they want the answer to be. Most unwittingly look for information that supports what they want to believe.



And the fact remains that not one nation nor religion/agnostics/atheists outside of the Muslim Religion, is not under attack by Jihad today. You can also factor in the reality that Arafat became a billionaire while his Egyptian born claim to Israel was a source of power & money to him. Meanwhile the hatred he stirred up throughout the Arab world supported continuous bombing of Israel even when Israel was not fighting back but looking for diplomatic solutions from the UN. That would be like Nero Fiddling while Rome went up in flames.

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