EnviroLink Forum

While I feel bad that it had to happen, I can't quite understand why there is all of this outrage about the Israeli airstrikes, when Israel has been under fairly constant attack from Hamas rockets for quite a while now. If a group was doing this from Mexico or Canada into the US, we would be bombing them off the face of the planet and the whole world would support us in doing so.

Instead, we are seeing headlines like this:



It's clear that there are a lot of innocent people on both sides that are getting caught in this insanity, but at some point someone has to stand up to the Hamas (and other) militants who hide among the general populous and fire rockets into civilian areas of Israel. Obviously the whole situation is a mess that has not been, and will not be able to be easily resolved. Such a shame.

-josh

Isreal has been suppressing the palestians for many years with American funding. Its strange that Isreals strife is mentioned in the bible yet it is maintained in in the modern world, especially the news breaking out comes at christmas time.

Is it the Zionists at work below the counter?

I hate to say the obvious but one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

Yeah, it is insanity. But why in the world would anyone take sides in mutual insanity? Are you? That would be such a shame.

I saw it on the news t’nite and was sickened by it. Yuck. And when I came home tonight and saw your response, Josh, I was even more sick. Would you liken Israelis’s attack on the lesser equipped Palestinians as akin to what might happen if Mexico or Canada attacked some part of the USA? Blow anyone off the face of the planet and expect the whole world to support such an action? Josh - I feel your dismay and yet am dismayed that you are taking sides and, if push came to shove, would blow your own sibling (me!!!) off the face of the planet .... ? Am I not kindred? Aren't we all regardless of geography and these lines we've drawn?

First off, where are the media stories which lead up to this outburst of violence? We have not been exposed to Hamas related stories. Would you agree? Israel has more force than the Palestinians have had and have had that power for much longer. What do you see there? First, it seems, they (Israelis) had a 2 week escalating rocket attack against them, with over 65 rockets launched into Southern parts of Israel, and then BAM!!! …. Israel uses rockets to attack, over a two day period, killing 225 and injuring 400. In contrast, how many Israelis were killed? The Palestinian group, Hamas, blames Israel for ending the cease-fire. Yet Condaleeza Rice and others are blaming the Palestinians. How do we know it was the Palestinians as Hamden denied these accusations? Who broke the cease-fire? We are told it was the Palestinians but how do we know for sure?

The U.S. supports Israel and the article comes from a US media source – so how do we know? Hamden told CNN that the Hamas did not fire rockets through the cease-fire and that it is clear (at least to the Palestinians) that it was the Israelis who violated the cease-fire. "For half the period of cease-fire, they closed all the checkpoints, and they killed 28 Palestinians." The Palestinian legislator' Hanan Ashrawi, accused Israel of ignoring the terms of the cease-fire.
Do we know that Ashrawi’s accusations are valid? The article which you provided does not give any further details as to how the Israelis may have been guilty or not and that is the same for the Palestinians, but again the media outlet is CNN and we know the US backs Israel. Does it not? So who is telling the truth? The Israeli's - backed by the US supported media? Or the underdogs - also known as terrorists? In an unequitable society, who would believe a woman or a slave, servant, serf ...

Barak has stated that Israeli attacks would continue as long as necessary until Hamas militants were ready to "change their behavior." Pfffff ….. as if changing a child’s violent behavior will stop if we hit him! smack, smack ... it's over now.

We all know that ending violent behavior will occur when we inflict violence upon those who are committing violence, right?

The situation is insane and humans are supposed to be logical, rational species? Seriously, I don’t think we can trust our highly evolved brains and opposable thumbs. What are we missing here? What is the crux? I don’t mean to be sarcastic at all. This is a philosophical question which I invite anyone to ponder.

Israelis shouldn’t have to experience shelling and rocket attacks on innocent civilians. Nobody should! So how will they STOP experiencing this situation repeated over and over? Barak is oh- so- confident (with darn good reason) to believe the US would not wait one day before retaliating with all their considerable might with “thousands of rockets” against Mexico or … in your words … Canada … if any part of the US was bombed, shelled, or rocketed by Mexico (or Canada). No they unfortunately would not wait because “they” are louder – have the louder voice and a much stronger military might (some taxes will account for that) and we all know that “might makes right”. If you have a louder voice, well then, you win! (and serfs, women, terrorists, etc., etc., are well aware of this dynamic). And in the scenario you suggest, Mexico and Canada might also be aware of this!

Dr. Mahmoud el-Khazndar, who works at Gaza City's Shifa Hospital said that the Palestinian people are suffering and dying because of shortages of medical equipment. He said that the hospital in Gaza is not used to the mass casualties they are experiencing right now. Has Israel ever encountered such a deficit? What do they do when Palestianians attack? Do they need to call in extra help from neighboring countries? Are there similar reports from Israeli hospitals? Who do they call in when they are feeling weaker? What nation do they call for help? Do the Israelis need the Egyptian government to send in extra ambulances and medical personnel to any of its borders to help treat and transport the wounded as was necessary for the Palestinians?? Just wondering ………

Ashrwari has said that Israeli’s response has been a very cruel escalation, and a relentless bombardment of a ‘captive civilian population that has already been under siege for months’. They have been deprived of basic requirements like food, medicines, fuel and power. Sounds like Iraq .... or maybe Canada someday.
White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said the United States places the blame for the Israeli military action squarely on Hamas. A White House spokesman is American. Shame on THE superpower to take sides. Very aggressive when coming from the supreme military power of the world, no? How can the Palestianians, under Hamas, be squarely blamed? This is ridiculous!
I’m not taking sides. (just noticing)
"UNRWA recognizes Israel's legitimate security concerns, and we would all say they are certainly legitimate, yet like UNRWA would also state that Israelis’ actions should be in conformity with international humanitarian law, and it should not use disproportionate force. Yet they are with force and will use it just as the US is with force and has used it– over and over and over again – for how long? …. As Einstein said …. How often do we have to repeat this? Haven’t we done so? For how long must we go this route? It ain’t working!
Here, the Israelis are the ones with force yet, as the Ambassador Riyad Mansour told reporters, there is no justification for punishing 1.5 million in the Gaza Strip because of the actions of a few. Bush did the same.
Ever seen a temper-tantrum? Know what the child is trying to say?
Saeb Erakat, adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, urged Israeli and Hamas leaders to put another cease-fire in place. He doesn’t believe the problem can be solved through violence …He said “I believe this is the only way out. I don't think this problem can be solved through military means," he told CNN. "I don't think it can be solved through aggression, through violence. Violence will breed more violence."

Ahhhhhh, a voice of reason! Could we please have some more of those voices?

What is the point in taking sides? It's human against human here, as in all cases, regardless of political opinions which we also call borders.

Taking all of this into account ..... isanity which we are able to rationalize .... but not.

A bad sceen all the way around but I would support Israel on this front. The goal of the Hamas , Hezbola , Assyrians, Iranians has not changed. Total genocide for Israel is written into their mission statements. What is so difficult for the press to understand about defending against such a mission.

_________________
I use red, not because of anger but to define my posts to catch rebuttals latter and it makes the quote feature redundent for me. The rest of you pick your own color.

Life is a time capsule we strive to fill with precious memories.

Are we not talking about biblical proportions here?

You and I often don't seem to agree on much, Josh, but I agree 100%. Great post. The problem with groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, etc. is that they do not believe that Israel has a right to exist as a nation. The antisemitism of these groups can clearly be seen in there own writings and the insane rantings of their lunatic leaders. They want nothing less than the extermination of Israel and Jewish people. Their ideology is radical, hateful, and antisemitic to its core, not unlike Nazism. No one who is sane enjoys the thought of these kind of actions having to be taken. Like all nations, however, Israel has a right to self-defense of its people. And sometimes a severe response, unpleasant as it may be, is a matter of necessity. Lunatics like Hamas, etc. have shown time and time again that they cannot be reasoned with.

_________________
Vegetarian: Old Native American word meaning really bad hunter.

I agree. I'm wondering if this latest skirmish will escalate into something much bigger.

_________________
"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

So, what ideas do you have for a PRAGMATIC solution to this? I'm sure the world's leaders would love to hear what solution you have for ending this conflict if they are workable! What do you expect Israel to do? Just sit there and be bullied by hateful lunatics who are on record as wanting the Israeli nation and the Jewish race and religion exterminated from the planet?! Using your logic, we should never have retaliated against Japan when they bombed Pearl Harbor, because, after all, "violence will breed more violence".

_________________
Vegetarian: Old Native American word meaning really bad hunter.

The palestinians are trapped in a very small holding, deprived of space and identity and freedom.

So, what ideas do you have for a PRAGMATIC solution to this? I'm sure the world's leaders would love to hear what solution you have for ending this conflict if they are workable! What do you expect Israel to do? Just sit there and be bullied by hateful lunatics who are on record as wanting the Israeli nation and the Jewish race and religion exterminated from the planet?! Using your logic, we should never have retaliated against Japan when they bombed Pearl Harbor, because, after all, "violence will breed more violence".[/quote]

It does breed more violence which is why there are far more terrorists in the world today than there were before Bush took office. The world is a much more dangerous place after his terrorizing war on terror which has only created more terrorists. But that's another topic.

Israel has been backed into a corner time and time again and as such, have felt the need to oppose their attackers with force. But how long has this been going on for and when did force ever actually work to end the conflict? Never, thats when. Remember how Einstein defined Insanity: "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Bombing the Palestinians is 100% guaranteed not to accomplish anything but create more dead people and angrier live ones.
You ask me what pragmatic solutions I have? How has bombing ever been "pragmatic" ? Has it ever ended the conflict?

I do understand how frustrating this is for the Israeli's but they are quite frankly insane if they believe that bombing the 1.5 million in the Gaza is going to solve anything at all.

Then what should they do, Animal-friendly?

It will take concerted effort on behalf of (probably) the EU. What seems certain is that the US should stay out of it.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/26290/Israel ... okers.aspx

_________________
I use red, not because of anger but to define my posts to catch rebuttals latter and it makes the quote feature redundent for me. The rest of you pick your own color.

Life is a time capsule we strive to fill with precious memories.

Do you really understand? They are surrounded by nations that want to anihilate them. None of us could possibly understand how they live. I for one would not want to leave my fate to others to decide, especially when they tended to side with those who want you wiped off the face of the earth.

_________________
"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

The Palestinians are basically the pawns of the Islamic nations around them that refuse to do anything to actually help them. All they seem to want to do is cause trouble for Israel, so instead of sending them useful things like building supplies and food, they smuggle in guns and rockets to attack Israel.

Israel is no innocent party in this whole thing either. I believe the Israeli government's approach to the Palestinians has been wrong for many, many years.

I do not have a proposal or idea for how to solve this long-standing problem, but I think it is completely naive to put all of the blame on "the Zionists" as you did earlier in this thread.

-josh