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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:34 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
In the past when I served, pay was less than civilian, and people did it out of patriotism and duty. Now it is the government big pay feed bucket;
http://www.military.com/veterans-report ... ESRC=vr.nl


You mean that you were then willing to sacrifice your very, very precious life .... a life that no other than you could uniquely live ....?

At that time, you were ready to sacrifice your unique life to the "job" of fighting for an ideology? Freedom, was it? Ready to let your life go, sacrifice your life for the idea of "patriotism" and this thing called "Duty"?

Patriotism and duty are ideas which society has infringed upon you.
This will be hard on you. You will fight this. You will be mad at me.

But if you do not hold your own life as sacred (and it is), how will you ever know those you were bombing as sacred? The lives you ended were as worth living as your own.

If you value your own life .... Let's hope you do .... then you might also value the lives of others, becauuse they ARE you.

What a bunch of ignorant horse crap. You obviously never read about what I did or you would be apologizing.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v699/ ... toffer.jpg
Then there is the troll tommee, who has his facts mixed up. The USA is anti-terrorism, while Iran and others are known supporters of terrorism.


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I see that 'animal friendly' never apologized for calling me a bomber and killer, when I saved many lives.


Then you have 'right to left' who confuses support of anti-communist forces with supporting terrorism.
Personally, I don't think we should have done anything except nuke the terrorist camps and supporters on 9-11 and 12.
I like the Ike warning, and agree that the USA is partially a corporate hegemony, and not what our founders wanted in other ways, too. Certainly not in line with Madison's Papers.[/quote]

Whoa! I called you a "bomber and killer"? In response to what? You'll have to direct me to that statement Johnny because unless it was a response to something you directly wrote about bombing and klilling ..... I would not ever say such a thing out of the blue.[/quote]
You can't even read the whole of what is above??? You wrote this: "how will you ever know those you were bombing as sacred? The lives you ended were as worth living as your own." I flew unarmed medical evacuation helicopters out of patriotism and duty. I also was able to put myself in the wounded people's shoes, whether they were Americans, Aussies, or Vietnamese including civilians and enemy, I knew they would want treatment at a hospital and on board on the way. I flew against all odds so that others may live. Flying a steady hot hoist mission is a far cry from bombing people and ending their lives. You couldn't do it, IMHO.
http://stg.do/Iwpc

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:40 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
In the past when I served, pay was less than civilian, and people did it out of patriotism and duty. Now it is the government big pay feed bucket;
http://www.military.com/veterans-report ... ESRC=vr.nl


You mean that you were then willing to sacrifice your very, very precious life .... a life that no other than you could uniquely live ....?

At that time, you were ready to sacrifice your unique life to the "job" of fighting for an ideology? Freedom, was it? Ready to let your life go, sacrifice your life for the idea of "patriotism" and this thing called "Duty"?

Patriotism and duty are ideas which society has infringed upon you.
This will be hard on you. You will fight this. You will be mad at me.

But if you do not hold your own life as sacred (and it is), how will you ever know those you were bombing as sacred? The lives you ended were as worth living as your own.

If you value your own life .... Let's hope you do .... then you might also value the lives of others, becauuse they ARE you.

What a bunch of ignorant horse crap. You obviously never read about what I did or you would be apologizing.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v699/ ... toffer.jpg
Then there is the troll tommee, who has his facts mixed up. The USA is anti-terrorism, while Iran and others are known supporters of terrorism.


Quote:
I see that 'animal friendly' never apologized for calling me a bomber and killer, when I saved many lives.


Then you have 'right to left' who confuses support of anti-communist forces with supporting terrorism.
Personally, I don't think we should have done anything except nuke the terrorist camps and supporters on 9-11 and 12.
I like the Ike warning, and agree that the USA is partially a corporate hegemony, and not what our founders wanted in other ways, too. Certainly not in line with Madison's Papers.[/quote]

Whoa! I called you a "bomber and killer"? In response to what? You'll have to direct me to that statement Johnny because unless it was a response to something you directly wrote about bombing and klilling ..... I would not ever say such a thing out of the blue.[/quote]
You can't even read the whole of what is above??? You wrote this: "how will you ever know those you were bombing as sacred? The lives you ended were as worth living as your own." I flew unarmed medical evacuation helicopters out of patriotism and duty. I also was able to put myself in the wounded people's shoes, whether they were Americans, Aussies, or Vietnamese including civilians and enemy, I knew they would want treatment at a hospital and on board on the way. I flew against all odds so that others may live. Flying a steady hot hoist mission is a far cry from bombing people and ending their lives. You couldn't do it, IMHO.[/quote]

I see now your role in Viet and I DO apologize confating your pro-military and crowd-reduction sentiments with your role in Viet! Your statement about "nuking" terrorists and their camps was just one of the comments that lead me to believe your mission in Viet was similar to what your present day mission seems to be.
Listen again, if you haven't already, to Zinn's insights about US governemnt's propaganda machine and its influence on our youth .... then and now. Also, folks like Fos seem to get easily riled up and "called" to violence as a result of your comment about "nuking" people. In fact, he goes even further ..... he doesn't care about bystanders aka "collateral damage". There is complicity in silence.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:35 pm 
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The Sioux Chief calling for war against the Crow. The Macedonians calling for war against the Persians and the Persians calling for war against the Greeks. War is full of terror, and each side has its "propaganda". But there really is such a thing as "just cause". And there really is such a thing as overpopulation and hostility from overcrowding. Sometimes one side is "better" than the other, or would you rather have had Hitler win WWII?
"Howard Zinn cuts through this curricular fog: "War is terrorism ... Terrorism is the willingness to kill large numbers of people for some presumably good cause. That's what terrorists are about." Zinn demands that we reexamine the premise that war is necessary, a proposition not taken seriously in any high school history textbook I've ever seen. Instead, wars get sold to Americans -- especially to the young people who fight those wars -- as efforts to spread liberty and democracy."
Zinn is a mixed up writer. War HAS terror, but IS NOT terrorism. Terrorism is a method of fighting used by generally evil people that kills innocents inordinately. Not just collateral damage. It was JUST to spread liberty by the stop of communist takeover or islamic fundamentalist takeover, helping the weak fight for their freedom from oppressive takeover. Would you like to have your women's rights taken away from you?
Nuking the al queda (purposeful disrespect) and their supporters in the known camps and concentrations WOULD have been far less costly to the USA. Not enough would have been used to cause nuclear winter, and we had much of the world's sympathy on 9-11 and 12 only. Hesitation is a weakness Bush showed by waiting a month. In a deadly fight, when you are hit, hit back even harder, immediately and with even more violence and force--unless you want to lose. That is, if you can. We couldn't immediately after Pearl Harbor, but we could have with subs on 9-11.
Remember what they are fighting and blowing themselves and innocents up for---72 virgins in their disillusioned idea of heaven. To rational people that is insanity personified.
Personally, I think world gross overpopulation and pollution/depletion is insanity personified, too. Ecocide is insanity to me, and that is the direction over-compassion and over tolerance to overpopulation and those causing it, and over-tolerance of those causing depletion and pollution, is headed. I think the children of the future in a sustainable world are more important than the extra children of today's gross overshoot of sustainability. We have had the means to prevent more overpopulation and pollution, and reduce both in time, but wasted it in indecision and selfishness since the late 1960s.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:49 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
The Sioux Chief calling for war against the Crow. The Macedonians calling for war against the Persians and the Persians calling for war against the Greeks.

War is full of terror, and each side has its "propaganda". But there really is such a thing as "just cause". And there really is such a thing as overpopulation and hostility from overcrowding. Sometimes one side is "better" than the other, or would you rather have had Hitler win WWII?

"Howard Zinn cuts through this curricular fog: "War is terrorism ... Terrorism is the willingness to kill large numbers of people for some presumably good cause. That's what terrorists are about." Zinn demands that we reexamine the premise that war is necessary, a proposition not taken seriously in any high school history textbook I've ever seen. Instead, wars get sold to Americans -- especially to the young people who fight those wars -- as efforts to spread liberty and democracy."

Zinn is a mixed up writer. War HAS terror, but IS NOT terrorism. Terrorism is a method of fighting used by generally evil people that kills innocents inordinately. Not just collateral damage. It was JUST to spread liberty by the stop of communist takeover or islamic fundamentalist takeover, helping the weak fight for their freedom from oppressive takeover. Would you like to have your women's rights taken away from you?
Nuking the al queda (purposeful disrespect) and their supporters in the known camps and concentrations WOULD have been far less costly to the USA. Not enough would have been used to cause nuclear winter, and we had much of the world's sympathy on 9-11 and 12 only. Hesitation is a weakness Bush showed by waiting a month. In a deadly fight, when you are hit, hit back even harder, immediately and with even more violence and force--unless you want to lose. That is, if you can. We couldn't immediately after Pearl Harbor, but we could have with subs on 9-11.
Remember what they are fighting and blowing themselves and innocents up for---72 virgins in their disillusioned idea of heaven. To rational people that is insanity personified.
Personally, I think world gross overpopulation and pollution/depletion is insanity personified, too. Ecocide is insanity to me, and that is the direction over-compassion and over tolerance to overpopulation and those causing it, and over-tolerance of those causing depletion and pollution, is headed. I think the children of the future in a sustainable world are more important than the extra children of today's gross overshoot of sustainability. We have had the means to prevent more overpopulation and pollution, and reduce both in time, but wasted it in indecision and selfishness since the late 1960s.



I began to respond to this post ...... and I got totally lost so I ended up deleting it. I have no idea where to begin ..... honestly.

Zinn is clear-thinking Johnny. He is not at all confused. He is a rare glimmer of light in a world gone dark. Your idealism is about as dangerous as the idealism of al queda. Holy shit. I mean, really, .... the "children of the future" ... is nothing more than an idea and ideal which overshadows the children who are actually living now.

Zinn is not a "confused writer". He is not even a writer by profession. He is a historian who was able to NOT get caught up in zealotry. He didn't buy the bumper sticker of "spreading liberty" because he was able to discern the actuality from the ideal. The means is the end.

You mention Hitler and Pearl Harbor. Good Lord! The US came into WW2 late, not as a reaction to Hitler but as a reaction to Pearl Harbor, and then there was an awful lot of "collateral damage" for the civilians, for the elderly, the women, and the helpless children ..... untold suffering. Unjustifiable. It's not a good example for your argument.

Hitler's ideals made him an idiot; a very dangerous one, for sure. The people of 1940's Germany elected him based on his "ideals" ..... they had no idea what he had in store. We elect these governments to "lead us" .... and they lead us to war.

So there. I ended up writing some response, but it doesn't begin to tackle your ideas/ideals which end up being an ideology of sorts and that is because you bought the sound bites which coukld also be made into bumper stickers.

I would like to be able to talk to you J, but honestly, I have no idea where to begin .....

Oh, but just one more thing. You say that terrorists (presumably Al Queada), attacked us because ..... "Remember what they are fighting and blowing themselves and innocents up for---72 virgins in their disillusioned idea of heaven."

No. That wasn't why. But it's an easy taiking point as it allows us to hate them.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Here AF, you need to read through this site to get some ideas;
This is about a group that wants to spread the truth without rancor or racism. This is really a MUST read.

http://citizenwarriors.com/2010/07/white-roses.html

here is an important link there, with many more;

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2008/10/l ... islam.html

and one of the very important links;
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/t ... ption.html
more;
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/06/w ... orism.html

It is very important that people of the world of all faiths or even atheists, of every political bent, to know these things that could threaten them or their loved ones' lives. :shock: =D> :-k
This may get pulled by the powers that be, again. Obama is a moslem (intentional disrespect intended);
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Here AF, you need to read through this site to get some ideas;
This is about a group that wants to spread the truth without rancor or racism. This is really a MUST read.

http://citizenwarriors.com/2010/07/white-roses.html

here is an important link there, with many more;

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2008/10/l ... islam.html

and one of the very important links;
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/t ... ption.html
more;
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/06/w ... orism.html

It is very important that people of the world of all faiths or even atheists, of every political bent, to know these things that could threaten them or their loved ones' lives. :shock: =D> :-k
This may get pulled by the powers that be, again. Obama is a moslem (intentional disrespect intended);
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28

I never heard of this "citizenwarrior" site before, but now that I've glossed over a few items - especially their fear-mongering stories and videos on the threat of Islam, I have enough info to conclude that this is just one more extreme right wing hate group looking for outsiders to rally their followers to fight against! Ten years ago...certainly immediately after 9-11, I was open to this sort of thinking and read a lot of the anti-Islam writings of Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq, Ayan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, and some others who I realized later were just copying what had already been written in other books. In a nutshell, the most cogent argument that Islam as a religion and ideology represents an implacable enemy that cannot be harmonized with western democratic values. But, the argument from Spencer (and Harris regarding all religion) is that "moderate" or liberalized western Muslims who appear friendly and compatible with our way of life, are only compatible because they do not truly follow their own religion! In interviews on the subject, Spencer likes to use the analogy of a campfire -- where, the closer you are to the fire, the more heat you feel...and further away from the fire - less so. So for Spencer, the "fire" itself of Islamic ideology has to be rigidly based on the most literal interpretation of the Quran and Hadiths. And the "true" muslims would be the ones who are right next to the fire, and as a result desire to kill all infidels and conquer the whole world for Islam. And those moderate Muslims who we might have as neighbours and work with....well, they just don't understand their own religion, or they are covert agents for Islam since they are aware they live among infidels. Surely anyone can see where this line of thinking is going to lead to!

As I mentioned before, Harris applies this to Christians as well to argue that all organized religion needs to be destroyed. But, since Spencer calls himself a devout Catholic, he has to make sure that nobody asks him to explain some of the verses in the Bible - especially the Old Testament, which go even further in violence and dehumanizing enemies...enforced sexual slavery for example....yes, it's in your Bible! You can find it if you really want to. But, Spencer makes lame arguments that Christianity had its past indiscretions, like inquisitions, heresy convictions and ethnic cleansings even of Jewish converts who were suspected of not being loyal Catholics (Conversos). But Spencer says that we had the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, so Christendom is all better now and there is no danger of our religion backsliding to the shear brutality of its past. I disagree, but there is another problem for Spencer and his fans, in that he never explains how we in the West should deal with Muslims living among us. From his fireside argument, a follower could reasonably assume that no Muslim can be trusted and allowed to remain....and that would explain the mosque burnings, the hysterical reaction of the "Ground Zero Mosque"...which wasn't a mosque, and wasn't at Ground Zero, but be that as it may, this rhetoric is not only a problem with rightwing activists, it has also found its way into the NYPD as their propaganda videos are included in training police officers about Islam and how to deal with Muslims. The NYPD has gone so far in profiling Muslims and seeking out Muslim terrorist sleeper cells that they have recently ran afoul of the FBI for setting up surveillance operations of suspected Muslims outside of their own jurisdiction- the City of New York.

What the anti-Muslim stuff boils down to in the end is the search for a new scapegoat to take the place of foreign enemy to fight after the Soviet Union collapsed. Osama Bin Laden turns out to be the greatest friend the militias, the military industrial complex, and all of the special interests who place "security" ahead of freedom, ever could have asked for, because instead of fighting against U.S. proxies and American troops overseas, he decided to take his war to U.S. soil and target the very center of international banking which finances multinational capitalism (I want to focus on WTC because the Pentagon was lesser significance). But, the bombings of the WTC towers did not accomplish his goal of bringing down the international banking system because among the more than 2000 casualties, most of them were mere office workers pushing paper and doing the routine jobs for the planners and financial analysts at Goldman-Sachs and other major investment banks that were headquartered in those towers. Goldman-Sachs came back bigger than ever and virtually runs Wall Street and the Washington establishment for that matter.....the oil conglomerates would be their only possible competing interests....nevertheless, the blowback for the entire Arab World and Muslims living in the West has been to unleash a ruthless response of invasions and occupations to control the regions with the last remaining significant oil reserves.

The real, unadulterated truth in my opinion is that the problem of hostilities and aggressions from Muslim nations and significant populations has been powered by their own sense of once being rulers of the known world, and then to not only be displaced by rising Western powers, but to end up being economic and military colonies of the foreign infidels. Now, if you find the way some Muslim leaders have reacted to colonization -- apparently more violently than most of Latin America has to U.S. colonization -- then you should hold that thought as we are observing the increasingly violent and unbalanced reactions from various parts of the U.S. political right, as they try to continue living in denial about the clear fact that the United States of America is a military and commercial empire that is already in the process of collapsing! And I say that because, like every other empire that has proceeded it, the U.S. Empire is already bankrupt, but cannot stop financing its global war machine because it's domestic economy is dependent on the continued flow of oil and other natural resources, as well as the flow of cheap manufactured imports for its consumers. The last chance to stop the plunge over the precipice was when Barack Obama was elected president four years ago, and at the time had a Democratic Congress, and yet he and his advisers calculated that the costs of ending the empire outweighed the benefits. If he is turfed out this year by the Republican puppet, the same...if not more rapid....march to oblivion will occur! The only unknown, and the most scary aspect of what will occur in the next 5 to 10 years, is how the American right will react. My hunch is that based on the violence and the vitriol in the rhetoric I have read in recent years, it will be worse than anything done in the name of Islam. The worst terrorist threat of the near future will be waving the cross and proclaiming their Christian virtues to us all.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Quote:
The real, unadulterated truth in my opinion is that the problem of hostilities and aggressions from Muslim nations and significant populations has been powered by their own sense of once being rulers of the known world, and then to not only be displaced by rising Western powers, but to end up being economic and military colonies of the foreign infidels.


Winner winner, chicken dinner!

And you're also right about us being an empire in decline. We can no longer afford to spend three times more than any other country supporting all of our wars, bases, and other military interests though out the world.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:14 am 
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Quote:
Johhny Electriglide"]Here AF, you need to read through this site to get some ideas;
This is about a group that wants to spread the truth without rancor or racism. This is really a MUST read.

http://citizenwarriors.com/2010/07/white-roses.html


And I listened but am not anymore in the know than you are as a result. All I learned from tapping into this link is that Islam can be interpreted and misinterpereted just as well as the Bible. The `Three Things About Islam`... only reinforces my suspision that you are looking for a reason to hate and possibly justify aggression against nations who are `evil`. This group wants to spread the negatives about Islam which IS with rancor! The same could be done with Christianity and the Bible. That you actually posted this .... and I`m not sure why you posted it ..... shows me how vulnerable you are to propaganda. I cringe writing this because I know you will cringe reading it.

Quote:
here is an important link there, with many more;

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2008/10/l ... islam.html


This is a link to the same organization .... and it doesn`t work anyway.

Quote:
and one of the very important links;
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/t ... ption.html


Again, citizen warrior, and this link doesn`t work either.

Quote:


Neither does this one work, but it is `citizen warrior`anyway. Same old hate-group as far as I can see.

Quote:
It is very important that people of the world of all faiths or even atheists, of every political bent, to know these things that could threaten them or their loved ones' lives. :shock: =D> :-k
This may get pulled by the powers that be, again. Obama is a moslem (intentional disrespect intended);
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28
[/quote]


This link does work but is an edited and broken up video that shamelessly cherry-picks footage to show that Obama is a `Muslim`. In fact, watching it cemented my admiration for Obama. He courageously challenges the stereotypes accorded to Muslim Americans and he acknowledges the contributions of Islam to our world society. He points out the contributions towards art, literacy, music and science that the Islamist culture has given the world. He boldly acknowledges that Islam is an important part of creating peace ...... just as Christianity has the potential without the Christian fundamentalists who are as equally prepared to hate as the fundamentalist Muslims are.

This video that you posted was designed to make me think Obama is some sort of enemy .... but as edited and cherry-picked as it is ..... I can clearly see that Obama is building bridges rather than burning them.

What is your point in posting any of this J except to fan the flames of hatred against other nations who are, their entire population, not as smart as you .....


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:38 am 
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right to left wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Here AF, you need to read through this site to get some ideas;
This is about a group that wants to spread the truth without rancor or racism. This is really a MUST read.

http://citizenwarriors.com/2010/07/white-roses.html

here is an important link there, with many more;

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2008/10/l ... islam.html

and one of the very important links;
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/t ... ption.html
more;
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/06/w ... orism.html

It is very important that people of the world of all faiths or even atheists, of every political bent, to know these things that could threaten them or their loved ones' lives. :shock: =D> :-k
This may get pulled by the powers that be, again. Obama is a moslem (intentional disrespect intended);
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28

I never heard of this "citizenwarrior" site before, but now that I've glossed over a few items - especially their fear-mongering stories and videos on the threat of Islam, I have enough info to conclude that this is just one more extreme right wing hate group looking for outsiders to rally their followers to fight against!

Yes R to L, these vids are pure hate-propaganda. They show how ridiculous certain aspects of the Islamist religion are .... for sure, but they focus exclusively upon these points. If the Christian religion was dragged out in the same way, Christians would be accused of slavery, stoning and all manner of èvil`.


Quote:
Ten years ago...certainly immediately after 9-11, I was open to this sort of thinking and read a lot of the anti-Islam writings of Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq, Ayan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, and some others who I realized later were just copying what had already been written in other books.


I only read Ayan Hirsi Ali and mostly agreed with her. i don`t think she copied what had been written in other books. Hers was an account of her own direct experience and I have no argument with it. Not sure about her conclusions though.

Quote:
In a nutshell, the most cogent argument that Islam as a religion and ideology represents an implacable enemy that cannot be harmonized with western democratic values. But, the argument from Spencer (and Harris regarding all religion) is that "moderate" or liberalized western Muslims who appear friendly and compatible with our way of life, are only compatible because they do not truly follow their own religion!


Ridiculous, round-about, back to front argument. With such a view, Muslims could never possibly be seen as rational human beings.


Quote:
In interviews on the subject, Spencer likes to use the analogy of a campfire -- where, the closer you are to the fire, the more heat you feel...and further away from the fire - less so. So for Spencer, the "fire" itself of Islamic ideology has to be rigidly based on the most literal interpretation of the Quran and Hadiths. And the "true" muslims would be the ones who are right next to the fire, and as a result desire to kill all infidels and conquer the whole world for Islam. And those moderate Muslims who we might have as neighbours and work with....well, they just don't understand their own religion, or they are covert agents for Islam since they are aware they live among infidels. Surely anyone can see where this line of thinking is going to lead to!


Yes .... that being Muslim, no matter how, equates with evil ..... no matter what! That one cannot be a moderate Muslim because there is no such thing. As if there is no such thing as a Christian who does not believe in taking slaves! What is Spencer up to I wonder ....

There is more to your post that deserves comment and I will later .....(your post is 4 paragraphs!)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:57 pm 
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http://amilimani.com/

and this one;

http://stg.do/Iwpc

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“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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