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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
General John Wayne Stollings??? I thought I was the John Wayne type. He certainly was a role model to this decorated veteran.


When one has little in the way of real arguments one is relegated to "jokes" and the use of animated films in the vain attempt to deflect the discussion.


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I think we need our military on the border more than in old cold war places. I would like to see government pay reduced to civilian, seeing it is 35 to 100% higher,


Not sure about other positions, but I know of many more who have left government service for private industry for better pay than have gone into government service from private industry. One went into government service for the health benefits as he could not get coverage as a self employeed person. The other returned to government service when the company he joined went bankrupt and sank his retirement planning. My B-I-L (USAR) works for the county due to the transfer of some service time towards that retirement because the pay is much lower than a similar job in the private sector.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Politics is an intellectual game or gamble, where a whole country is at stake.
Politicians are at best actors, at worst liars, deceivers. Their Utopia is as fake as the colossal cash in their bank account.

The honest man lies deep in politics like a lion only for a short while then the real poacher politicians oust or kill him then lie deeply to the honest man.

Mothy.

The trouble is the tw@ts that control the media have divided mans mind whereas we have the power to unite hearts.

Mothy and God.

A full moon tonight. Lunar lunatic. The moon controls tides. Are the tides of your body/mind truly free? Too much information opens the door for disinformation.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
They could have pulled out the troops leaving a huge vacuum for another problem group to fill and a mess which would eventually have to be dealt with at some point in the future. Once you break something there is a moral obligation to mitigate the damage, which is the reason for the delay.


Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean Wayne. What would happen if the US wasn't there and had never been there?


Quote:
Never having been there has no basis in the discussion of pulling troops out. The fact was we went in a disrupted the existing government, which created a moral reason to fix what we had broken before we left. We also did not finish what we were there to do in Afghanistan until just recently. Iraq was more of a personal goal on many levels.


But we wouldn't have to mitigate damage done if we hadn't done the damage in the first place.

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But that has no relation to the troops being pulled out now, as I stated.


Quote:
But it IS RELATED to US foreign policy and Ron Paul is the one candidate who would not have created these messes in the first place! Therefore, he is unlikely to create further messes. The American people are sick and tired of war, of the trillions spent on them and of the inexcuseable carnage and human suffering caused by them. If you don't send them in to begin with, there is far less to mitigate. With trillions saved by NOT going to war, maybe we could begin to address some of the huge social and economic problems facing us now.

Paul is an isolationist, not a pacifist.


Quote:
And as for personal goals, I don't believe the American people have any more tolerance for governments who run roughshod over other nations under the banner of "might is right". The Iraq war was a travesty.


Quote:
They voted the same administration into office again .... what does that say?


And then Obama was voted in on the promise of "change", but he failed. Makes one wonder if the "conspiracy theory" is a "theory" at all.

Nobody has offered a panacea thus far. And while Libertarians have garnered a smaller percentage of the vote historically, it would seem that Ron Paul is cracking that record. He is surpassing the traditional 10% .... and maybe for good reasons.

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Because with the GOP pandering to the fringe it is easier for the elder Paul to run as a Republican than a Libertarian by not being quite as far to the left.


Quote:
But I'm not sure he is pandering to the fringe. The fringe has occuppied Wall Street and are fed up.


Quote:
The conservative fringe is the Tea Party, which is on the other end of the spectrum from the Occupy movement.


Quote:
I'm sure the Tea Party had many legitimate concerns and the Occupy Movement is not the fringe. In fact, it seems that many of the concerns held by the Tea Party are the same concerns held by the Occupy Movement. The US has become a warrior nation and is itself, rogue, terrorizing nation after nation. Looks like Iran may well be next and in the words of Mr. Electroglide, we should "glass" them! Thankfully that particular mentality is shrinking because we are fed up. Paul is one of the 99%. He has not been bought by any corporation.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:06 pm 
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And now alcohol is legal and still carries with it social problems.

Quote:
Legal, but somewhat controlled.


Yes, as other drugs should also be somewhat controlled with safe injection sites, education, prevention, etc

Other drugs have been prohibited and the social problem has been treated as "felonious" (I've come to love that word). The prohibition has created all kinds of crime; theivery, murder, gang violence, mafia violence, as well as the unjust punishment of people who basically have mental health issues.

Quote:
At least in jail there is a chance for some treatment, but the conservatives want to cut out any other assistance from the government.


Many people who have not committed one violent crime in their lives and are sentenced to prison for drug related crimes, emerge from that experience as violent criminals. Apparently, prison seems to have similar capacities to screw with one's psychological well being as war does. Why not save the money it costs to incarcerate thousands of drug afflicted people and use it on prevention, education, etc in the first place? There could be a chance of treatment if the funds were spent differently. "Treatment in jail" seems like an oxymoron. How about a little inside gang warfare, with a sprinkle of rape and a further education in how to jack a car when you're in need of some economic assistance? Prison is not a very healing environment no matter how many social workers you throw at the system.

No wonder the states feel the need to build more prisons and has more of its population imprisoned than any other nation. Big business? The war on drugs needs to be history.

Quote:
That seems to be the will of the people, especially those of the conservative leanings.


But not Ron Paul who would excuse every prisoner in jail due to marijuana. Obama isn't willing to take that step.

Quote:
Quote:
.... same with this prohibition on drugs which sees innocents put behind bars when they have never even committed a violent crime.


Quote:
By definition one is not innocent if one commits a crime. Violence as a criteria would be something Bernie Madoff wold love to be able to use to claim his innocence too.


Comparing Madoff's criminal activity with the so called "criminal" activity of a pot smoker is ludicrous.

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It should be veiwed as the social problem it actually is ...


Quote:
But the GOP does not want to treat social problems, that is for some charity or another.


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Otherwise, we are going to have to build even more prisons to incarcerate all those pot-smokers! Exile Nation. Go Charles!


We will need them for the homosexuals who have the nerve to attack the sanctity of the institution of marriage and the women who use birth control.

And for the marijuana criminals. Ron Paul isn't against any.

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Quote:
Such a collosal waste of money and of young lives and such an excuse for the incarceration of the disnfranchised poor .... not to mention the warfare in Mexico! Talk about "felonious"! Adiction is clearly a social problem and not a felony. To treat it as a felony is to sweep it under the rug and create even more social problems. There is a movement afoot in the US to end the war on drugs and Ron Paul is at the forefront. This is BIG and no other right wing candidate (or left wing) has spoken to it with such clarity as Ron Paul has.


Quote:
If the war on drugs, or how to deal with addictive substances were the only job of government is would be a critical aspect.


It is a critical aspect as well as civil liberties, foreign policy, property rights, and the 1.4 trillion spent on militarism. It's all critical.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:31 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
But it IS RELATED to US foreign policy and Ron Paul is the one candidate who would not have created these messes in the first place!


No, but he would create whole new messes, which may be even worse.

Quote:
Therefore, he is unlikely to create further messes.


That is illogical as it assumes isolationism does not create messes as well.

Quote:
The American people are sick and tired of war, of the trillions spent on them and of the inexcuseable carnage and human suffering caused by them. If you don't send them in to begin with, there is far less to mitigate.


How does he prevent historical actions? The future is unknown and isolationism can be just as much of a problem as prior actions.

Quote:
With trillions saved by NOT going to war, maybe we could begin to address some of the huge social and economic problems facing us now.


Except he would not address those problems either. They are not what he considers to be a responsibility of the federal government.

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Paul is an isolationist, not a pacifist.


Isolationism is pacifism unless and until there is a direct attack on us.


Quote:
And then Obama was voted in on the promise of "change", but he failed. Makes one wonder if the "conspiracy theory" is a "theory" at all.


Yes, because with the advent of the party of "no" position by the GOP the president can do very little without Congress moving first. The three parts of the government are critical. Ron Paul would not have done any better without support of Congress.


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I'm sure the Tea Party had many legitimate concerns and the Occupy Movement is not the fringe.


It is a fringe just as is the Tea Party.

Quote:
In fact, it seems that many of the concerns held by the Tea Party are the same concerns held by the Occupy Movement.


Neither have a central organization, leadership, or even concerns. The occupy movement is wantingto have discussions and not a clear position.

Quote:
The US has become a warrior nation and is itself, rogue, terrorizing nation after nation.


Like those who harbor terrorist who plan attacks on the US?

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Quote:
By definition one is not innocent if one commits a crime. Violence as a criteria would be something Bernie Madoff wold love to be able to use to claim his innocence too.


And here is a more specific reply to your Madoff comment .....

http://www.naturalnews.com/034612_Snoop ... z1j4su03sT


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:19 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Yes, as other drugs should also be somewhat controlled with safe injection sites, education, prevention, etc


Which Dr. Paul clearly seems to believe is not the responsibility of the government to provide.

Quote:
Many people who have not committed one violent crime in their lives and are sentenced to prison for drug related crimes, emerge from that experience as violent criminals. Apparently, prison seems to have similar capacities to screw with one's psychological well being as war does. Why not save the money it costs to incarcerate thousands of drug afflicted people and use it on prevention, education, etc in the first place? There could be a chance of treatment if the funds were spent differently. "Treatment in jail" seems like an oxymoron. How about a little inside gang warfare, with a sprinkle of rape and a further education in how to jack a car when you're in need of some economic assistance? Prison is not a very healing environment no matter how many social workers you throw at the system.


Ever try to deal with someone addicted to meth? They do not easily volunteer for treatment, which is makes your position more difficult to believe is workable or even near realistic.


Quote:
But not Ron Paul who would excuse every prisoner in jail due to marijuana. Obama isn't willing to take that step.


That would take some time for so many presidential pardons. How many crimes would be attached to those so released?


Quote:
Quote:
By definition one is not innocent if one commits a crime. Violence as a criteria would be something Bernie Madoff wold love to be able to use to claim his innocence too.


Comparing Madoff's criminal activity with the so called "criminal" activity of a pot smoker is ludicrous.


How so? You claimed the lack of violence as if it were a critical factor and both situations are using violence as the determination in the same fashion.

Quote:
Quote:
Such a collosal waste of money and of young lives and such an excuse for the incarceration of the disnfranchised poor .... not to mention the warfare in Mexico! Talk about "felonious"! Adiction is clearly a social problem and not a felony. To treat it as a felony is to sweep it under the rug and create even more social problems. There is a movement afoot in the US to end the war on drugs and Ron Paul is at the forefront. This is BIG and no other right wing candidate (or left wing) has spoken to it with such clarity as Ron Paul has.


Quote:
If the war on drugs, or how to deal with addictive substances were the only job of government is would be a critical aspect.
[/quote]

Quote:
It is a critical aspect as well as civil liberties, foreign policy, property rights, and the 1.4 trillion spent on militarism. It's all critical.


It is all critical? If everything is supposedly critical the word is ill defined or the usage is inaccurate.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:24 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Quote:
By definition one is not innocent if one commits a crime. Violence as a criteria would be something Bernie Madoff wold love to be able to use to claim his innocence too.


And here is a more specific reply to your Madoff comment .....

http://www.naturalnews.com/034612_Snoop ... z1j4su03sT


More specific? In what way is it specific to give such a link? Where does it show Madoff used violence? The non-violent aspect was touted as an important factor in why someone should not be considered guilty of breaking the law. Both instances are non-violent and both are presently illegal, so how is one supposedly "innocent" and the other "guilty" if neither used violence and both have laws stating they are illegal?

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
But it IS RELATED to US foreign policy and Ron Paul is the one candidate who would not have created these messes in the first place!


No, but he would create whole new messes, which may be even worse.


Sometimes "maybe's/maybe not's" are strong enough on which to base a decisions, eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:44 pm 
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It is odd that few candidates would not have gone into Afghanistan after 9/11 had they been the President and more odd to think no such reaction would not have significant potential to create worse messes. I doubt that few Republican and even fewer Democratic candidates would have gone into Iraq, given the knowldege we now have on the treatment of intelligence used to justify the incursion. This does not make Ron Paul a clearly better choice based on his isolationistic position, which would have mirrored the common position on Iraq and been totally opposite on Afghanistan.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Yes, as other drugs should also be somewhat controlled with safe injection sites, education, prevention, etc


Quote:
Which Dr. Paul clearly seems to believe is not the responsibility of the government to provide.


Really? Did he not take the Hippocratic oath? I think he would be quite concerned with drug-addicted people (not that marijuana is physiologically addictive anyway), just as the medical system deals with all the other categories of mental health included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.

Quote:
Many people who have not committed one violent crime in their lives and are sentenced to prison for drug related crimes, emerge from that experience as violent criminals. Apparently, prison seems to have similar capacities to screw with one's psychological well being as war does. Why not save the money it costs to incarcerate thousands of drug afflicted people and use it on prevention, education, etc in the first place? There could be a chance of treatment if the funds were spent differently. "Treatment in jail" seems like an oxymoron. How about a little inside gang warfare, with a sprinkle of rape and a further education in how to jack a car when you're in need of some economic assistance? Prison is not a very healing environment no matter how many social workers you throw at the system.


Quote:
Ever try to deal with someone addicted to meth? They do not easily volunteer for treatment, which is makes your position more difficult to believe is workable or even near realistic.


They don't volunteer for prison either. If we can realistically get them into prison, we can realistically get them into a treatment centre. What's lacking is a political will and a weird sense of morality as well as a healthy dose of racism and classism.

Quote:
But not Ron Paul who would excuse every prisoner in jail due to marijuana. Obama isn't willing to take that step.


That would take some time for so many presidential pardons. How many crimes would be attached to those so released?

You'll have to ask Dr. Paul. The War on Drugs has been going on for almost 40 years; it might take a little time to unravel. The starting line is usually a good place to begin.

Quote:
By definition one is not innocent if one commits a crime. Violence as a criteria would be something Bernie Madoff wold love to be able to use to claim his innocence too.


Comparing Madoff's criminal activity with the so called "criminal" activity of a pot smoker is ludicrous.

Quote:
How so? You claimed the lack of violence as if it were a critical factor and both situations are using violence as the determination in the same fashion.


Lack of violence is a critical factor - I stated so explicitly. I would have thought that the fact that possession of marijuana is benign would be implicit. The actions of Madoff were not benign. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Here is a sample of the damage inflicted by Madoff on his victims. It's really not comparable to getting caught with a marijuana cigarette.

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/docum ... 81215.html

Such a collosal waste of money and of young lives and such an excuse for the incarceration of the disnfranchised poor .... not to mention the warfare in Mexico! Talk about "felonious"! Adiction is clearly a social problem and not a felony. To treat it as a felony is to sweep it under the rug and create even more social problems. There is a movement afoot in the US to end the war on drugs and Ron Paul is at the forefront. This is BIG and no other right wing candidate (or left wing) has spoken to it with such clarity as Ron Paul has.

Quote:
If the war on drugs, or how to deal with addictive substances were the only job of government is would be a critical aspect.


It is a critical aspect as well as civil liberties, foreign policy, property rights, and the 1.4 trillion spent on militarism. It's all critical.

Quote:
It is all critical? If everything is supposedly critical the word is ill defined or the usage is inaccurate.
[/quote]

Well inaccuracies happen sometimes. Replace the word 'important' if the word 'critical' doesn't work for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Quote:
By definition one is not innocent if one commits a crime. Violence as a criteria would be something Bernie Madoff wold love to be able to use to claim his innocence too.


And here is a more specific reply to your Madoff comment .....

http://www.naturalnews.com/034612_Snoop ... z1j4su03sT


More specific? In what way is it specific to give such a link? Where does it show Madoff used violence? The non-violent aspect was touted as an important factor in why someone should not be considered guilty of breaking the law. Both instances are non-violent and both are presently illegal, so how is one supposedly "innocent" and the other "guilty" if neither used violence and both have laws stating they are illegal?


I've answered this question in my previous post. The non-violence aspect is VERY important when the crime itself is benign. Madoff's crime was not violent but was extremenly harmful ... and that, of course, is an understatement. As stated in my previous post, it's like comparing apples and oranges .... Madoff steals millions of dollars while the 18 year old gets caught with a joint at a Grateful Dead concert.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Yes, as other drugs should also be somewhat controlled with safe injection sites, education, prevention, etc


Which Dr. Paul clearly seems to believe is not the responsibility of the government to provide.


animal-friendly wrote:
Really? Did he not take the Hippocratic oath?


How would the Hippocratic oath change his views on what the government should be able to do is very limited?

Quote:
I think he would be quite concerned with drug-addicted people (not that marijuana is physiologically addictive anyway), just as the medical system deals with all the other categories of mental health included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.


The medical system without the support of the federal government, maybe. The medical system does not deal with drug problems unless it is paid by someone and Dr. Paul clearly believes the governments should NOT be paying for it.

Quote:
Quote:
Many people who have not committed one violent crime in their lives and are sentenced to prison for drug related crimes, emerge from that experience as violent criminals. Apparently, prison seems to have similar capacities to screw with one's psychological well being as war does. Why not save the money it costs to incarcerate thousands of drug afflicted people and use it on prevention, education, etc in the first place? There could be a chance of treatment if the funds were spent differently. "Treatment in jail" seems like an oxymoron. How about a little inside gang warfare, with a sprinkle of rape and a further education in how to jack a car when you're in need of some economic assistance? Prison is not a very healing environment no matter how many social workers you throw at the system.


Quote:
Ever try to deal with someone addicted to meth? They do not easily volunteer for treatment, which is makes your position more difficult to believe is workable or even near realistic.


They don't volunteer for prison either.


Which is why they can get some treatment rather than no treatment.

Quote:
If we can realistically get them into prison, we can realistically get them into a treatment centre.


No, we cannot. We can get them into priosn via making a law which if violated puts them into prison. The legislators would not make a law to put them into treatment centers instead of prison for violations.

Quote:
What's lacking is a political will and a weird sense of morality as well as a healthy dose of racism and classism.


The GOP is strong on punishment, but not so much on treatment for the underpriviledged.

Quote:
Quote:
But not Ron Paul who would excuse every prisoner in jail due to marijuana. Obama isn't willing to take that step.


That would take some time for so many presidential pardons. How many crimes would be attached to those so released?

You'll have to ask Dr. Paul.


Why? He can foretell the future or something?

Quote:
The War on Drugs has been going on for almost 40 years; it might take a little time to unravel. The starting line is usually a good place to begin.


Actually the illegality of drugs has been going on for much longer than that. On November 15, 1875, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed an ordinance making it a misdemeanor to keep or frequent opium dens. That was the beginning of the anti-drug laws some 136 years ago.

Quote:
Quote:
Comparing Madoff's criminal activity with the so called "criminal" activity of a pot smoker is ludicrous.


Quote:
How so? You claimed the lack of violence as if it were a critical factor and both situations are using violence as the determination in the same fashion.


Lack of violence is a critical factor - I stated so explicitly.


Both situations are non-violent which sets this critical factor to the same point for both.

Quote:
I would have thought that the fact that possession of marijuana is benign would be implicit. The actions of Madoff were not benign.


I suppose that depends on how critical the belief something is or is not benign is when compared to the only listed factor relating to violence or the lack thereof.

Quote:
It's like comparing apples and oranges.


No, it is not when the ONLY critical aspect given was the violence connection.

Quote:
Here is a sample of the damage inflicted by Madoff on his victims.


There is no violent damage though, is there?

Quote:
It's really not comparable to getting caught with a marijuana cigarette
.

A marijuana cigarette is not something which would get someone sentenced to prison. That would be an apples to oranges comparison.


Quote:
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/st_madoff_victims_20081215.html


Try comparing felony weight possession, which would be the amount for sale.


Quote:
Quote:
If the war on drugs, or how to deal with addictive substances were the only job of government is would be a critical aspect.


It is a critical aspect as well as civil liberties, foreign policy, property rights, and the 1.4 trillion spent on militarism. It's all critical.

Quote:
It is all critical? If everything is supposedly critical the word is ill defined or the usage is inaccurate.


animal-friendly wrote:
Well inaccuracies happen sometimes. Replace the word 'important' if the word 'critical' doesn't work for you.


It is your statement. I cannot make guesses on your actual meaning other than what you actually write.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Quote:
By definition one is not innocent if one commits a crime. Violence as a criteria would be something Bernie Madoff wold love to be able to use to claim his innocence too.


And here is a more specific reply to your Madoff comment .....

http://www.naturalnews.com/034612_Snoop ... z1j4su03sT


More specific? In what way is it specific to give such a link? Where does it show Madoff used violence? The non-violent aspect was touted as an important factor in why someone should not be considered guilty of breaking the law. Both instances are non-violent and both are presently illegal, so how is one supposedly "innocent" and the other "guilty" if neither used violence and both have laws stating they are illegal?


animal-friendly wrote:
I've answered this question in my previous post. The non-violence aspect is VERY important when the crime itself is benign. Madoff's crime was not violent but was extremenly harmful ... and that, of course, is an understatement. As stated in my previous post, it's like comparing apples and oranges .... Madoff steals millions of dollars while the 18 year old gets caught with a joint at a Grateful Dead concert.


The 18 year old might get a ticket but not prison time. The person who would get prison time would be the one with large amounts of drugs for sale ... the same folks you pointed to as being dangerous and potentially violent. The apples to oranges comparison starts when you try to say simple possession would get someone put into prison.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Stop the intellectualization of either a puppet or a dead man.

The agenda will carry on despite your meagre aspirations.

There is no terrorist plot. The only one is what your government sent to you 911 the emergency code of America, just to make you look silly. Come on folks. There is no terrorist attack cept from your own government in their pursue of oil. And of course to diplomise , the easily puppeteering of all regimes. The one world government the microchipping of your offspring. The total control of human beings. WAKE UP!
Come on wake up! Do you think if muslims were uprising they wouldn't be a suicide bombing in the usa by now? There is none. And why is that? There is no global terrorism. It's all made up.

You think of all the Muslims in the U.S.A and no suicide bombings! Doh! A dear a female!

Doesn't that make you think?

If you mention the excellence of the security forces I shall put you in the iq of minus 20

America is the biggest terrorist organisation of the 21st century.

The banks are killing America and the banks lead us to war for profit.


Democracy is where people feel free but they are not. The ultimate prison.

They are cheeks from the same buttock.

Why do americans get excited over the same twoddle? The same old same old?


If I was for peace then I would be at war with the senate

mothy.

Peace.


Last edited by mothy on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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