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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
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No income no vote was stated tongue in cheek. Counting one person's vote more than another is not eliminating votes.


Actually, it does if you weight it enough. If my voted is weighted twice that of yours and we disagree my one vote neutralizes your vote and gives me one additional vote. That essentially liminates your vote.


Yes, and someone voting in opposition to me essentially does the same thing now.

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Or perhaps not, since the concern was supposedly how the poor HAS voted to give themselves benefits, not that they may vote those benefits at some time in the future.


No, that's the exact concern.

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But the example was supposed to show how the poor HAD created a problem, which clearly is not the case since there are not a majority of poor there.


Doesn't have to be a majority so much as it having to be enough relative to the other groups present. Consideration should also be given to how much of each demographic actually votes, not only how much of each comprises an area.

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It seems to be a cse where the non-poor seem to have thrown the poor under the bus so to speak. The inequality in education and training I found referenced would only come about with the majority non-poor voting to limit the resources spent on education for the poor.


If you're equating "poor" with those living at or under the poverty line, maybe. I'm looking at it more from a variable standpoint.

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How so? More heavily weighting the middle class tempers the issue you describe. It would empower third party candidates like never before.


Except the middle class is getting smaller, and in your example of the Delta has thrown the poor under a bus in many ways.


The middle class is getting smaller because of the current system. If that is to change, the power of the rich must be tempered and also shifted away from the poorer classes that support them.

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Nor do I.


So how would your plan increase the educational spendign for the poor in the Delta, which was your example. The vote of the poorer members is supposed to be diluted in your plan, which would seem to only maintain the lack of resources to improve the society as a whole.


A better question would be why it hasn't happened already, given such a champion of the poor and underprivileged has been elected as their representative for I don't know how many terms now. Hard to blame anyone for throwing the poor under the bus when they've done it to themselves for so long.

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Less than "not perfect" given the data.


Less than not perfect can still be pretty damn good. How much less? 8)

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Under numerous circumstances which is still continued to be ignored.


I've acknowledged faults and flaws, that the system isn't perfect. We're simply entertaining an idea. Short of outright agreement with you, how much more consideration should be given?

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I'm not ignoring it. I'm simply lending it the consideration it deserves. I accept that there will be demand for that which can be destructive. Society, at the same time it demands, recognizes that which is ultimately destructive and takes action accordingly.


Except that negates the premise of your statements concerning compensation being equal to demand beign filled which in turn is equal to a benefit to society.


No, it accounts for the fact that humans are imperfect beings.

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The more caveates which must be included the more flawed the plan.


You mean the more I don't provide a satisfactory answer to your questions, the more you believe the plan is flawed. :razz:



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Or perhaps, cleaner, while students cleaning up their own mess just might work out fine.


As long as you did not mind the injuries and lack of real education resulting from this plan. It shows a clear lack of understanding of the larger picture in favor of a knee-jerk reaction.


Yes, there is always the risk of injury with physical activity. You think the risk is higher for custodial work as opposed to P.E. or recess? I fail to see how early work experience doesn't qualify as education especially when there is no risk of being terminated. Are knee-jerk reactions necessarily bad? Is this a knee-jerk reaction or perhaps and idea from someone who's been around the block and knows what works off the top of their head?

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But the doctors are making more, despite being in larger number.


Please give me the evidence to support this claim. The income in 1900 compared to that in 1990 for a GP MD would be a good step in this case.


Your data clearly showed that doctors today are making inordinately more than they did in 1900. I thought inflation, maybe, but the numbers looked so much out of the ballpark that I didn't give it further thought. What'd I miss?

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I submit that their services are of higher quality now than it once was and that this contributes significantly to compensation.


And you have evidence of this where?


Evidence that we pool more intensive resources into medical training today than we did 100 years ago, which translates into better, more valuable physicians...really?

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No, it does make the difference. The survival or elimination of the business is the description of the outcome. Luck, either bad or good has been the reason for the outcome.


Ohhhh. I'll have to take that on faith then. 8)

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Not every good idea or plan succeeds and part of the cause is bad luck. Not every bad idea or plan fails and part of the cause is good luck.


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No, part of the cause is chance and chance alone.


Yes it is. If you have the best business plan in the world and sufficient capital for twice more than the average growth curve for a business of this type, but a simple act of bad luck can offset all of the planning and preparation and kill that business.


An act of bad luck? Huh?

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If you have a business that is isolated because a freak storm causes a landslide which cannot be cleared for months after you have exhausted your capital and closed your business, what is the cause other than chance that the business failed.


Nothing, you're just getting "colorful" with the outcome's description based on what is considered fortunate and what is not. We could call it a spell, a curse, or if there is good luck, a blessing. 8-[

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Oh he got his luck alright, just not the form he was hoping for.


So luck does make of break a plan? :eh:


Nah, luck is just a way of describing how the chips fell.

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I'm sure. I'm not as concerned with that as I am the existing poorer classes multiplying on their own.


Evidence of this claim?


:-s What claim?

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The fact that they their contributions were no longer valuable enough to be further compensated by that particular employer? Am I to assume this particular person is so unlucky that they cannot find a job within a reasonable amount of time either without falling into poverty?


No, you can accept the facts that in a bad economy you may not get a job regardless of how hard you try due to being unlucky enough to have lost a job if several million jobs have disappeared nationwide. How long can you survive without income?


Long enough to find work or, if necessary, adapt to where I no longer need it. 8)

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Born with a silver spoon in their mouth, blessed, favored, etc. I'll stick with fortunate.


It all equates to being lucky though.


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You think luck has anything to do with being lucky?


Does that not follow definition-wise?


Yes, I'm just giving you the business. :twisted:

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Other than the area being poor, is there a more valid reason why schools in poor areas are in the state that they're in?


Racial bigotry is often the basic reason. Economic bigotry is another.


I agree wholeheartedly. :mrgreen:

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I mean, it can't possibly be as simple as folks generally not giving a rat's ass, can it?


Yes, if you can afford to send your children to a private school why support a public school for the poor minorities?


I know. Doesn't make a hell of alot of sense to me either. On the flip side, fostering a destructive social model, generation after generation, might give a clue that some demographics couldn't care less about education in the first place.

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Naw, that would be too simple. There must be another explanation. I hear there are statues that bleed too. Those must be miracles.


Just as claiming those who are poor are so because they really want to be based on a pure assumption.


Good thing no one's made that claim.

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A basic human right decided that it is such by who, exactly? Sounds like something that can be changed.


In our society it can be changed by the agreement of the majority of the state legislators in 2/3 of the states.


As can the requirement on who/how many must agree in order to change X.

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False choice fallacy?


What false choice?


Ahh, there was only one scenario. My bad, read too fast.

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At any rate, this can be averted by empowering the middle class...now.


How is the middle class NOT empowered compared to the poor now? You claim the poor are voting things for themselves when they are NOT a majority, which makes the claim false. Proposing to correct the situation on such a false claim does not make the situation as it was claimed.


There needn't be a majority...only a majority of votes.

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You're concentrating too hard on the weighting and not hard enough on sheer numbers of votes.


Weighting toward the higher incomes while the sheer numbers are mostly falling in income level refutes what I am saying in what fashion?


It doesn't. I agree that the poor component is growing, for other reasons, but it will eventually be too late to do anything to reverse the trend. What do you suggest?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:26 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
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No income no vote was stated tongue in cheek. Counting one person's vote more than another is not eliminating votes.


Actually, it does if you weight it enough. If my voted is weighted twice that of yours and we disagree my one vote neutralizes your vote and gives me one additional vote. That essentially liminates your vote.


Fosgate wrote:
Yes, and someone voting in opposition to me essentially does the same thing now.?


You know better than that. The current opposing vote on negates a vote, but a vote WEIGHTED higher than yours would do more than just offset.

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Or perhaps not, since the concern was supposedly how the poor HAS voted to give themselves benefits, not that they may vote those benefits at some time in the future.


No, that's the exact concern.


How can they do that when they are not a majority? Your claims are not backed up by facts.

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But the example was supposed to show how the poor HAD created a problem, which clearly is not the case since there are not a majority of poor there.


Doesn't have to be a majority so much as it having to be enough relative to the other groups present.


Sorry, but that is pure BS. Unless there is a majority vote there is no passage of anything in the US. Thus, unless another group agrees with that view it does not happen and if that passes your claim is invalid concernign the poor giving themselves anything.

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Consideration should also be given to how much of each demographic actually votes, not only how much of each comprises an area.


Poor voters generally do not vote as often nor as consistently as those making more money, so this goes against your position too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout#cite_note-18

In developed countries, non-voters tend to be concentrated in particular demographic and socioeconomic groups, especially the young and the poor

USA (1988) Turnout

50.1 %

Income (Quinitile)

Lowest 20%: 36.4 %
52
59
67
Highest 20%: 63.1


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It seems to be a cse where the non-poor seem to have thrown the poor under the bus so to speak. The inequality in education and training I found referenced would only come about with the majority non-poor voting to limit the resources spent on education for the poor.


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If you're equating "poor" with those living at or under the poverty line, maybe. I'm looking at it more from a variable standpoint.


What variable would that be other than "not-rich"? It seems everything in this plan is an undefined variable ... :-

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How so? More heavily weighting the middle class tempers the issue you describe. It would empower third party candidates like never before.


Except the middle class is getting smaller, and in your example of the Delta has thrown the poor under a bus in many ways.


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The middle class is getting smaller because of the current system.


OK, how then is the poor vote, which is the lowest turnout of all of the groups causing this change exactly? It seems the cause is more in line with the wealthy earning more and not allowing the rest of the groups to have any share.

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If that is to change, the power of the rich must be tempered and also shifted away from the poorer classes that support them.


The poorer classes vote in support of the rich? Yet the rich would have their votes weighted more than the poor to dilute this effect?

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Nor do I.


So how would your plan increase the educational spendign for the poor in the Delta, which was your example. The vote of the poorer members is supposed to be diluted in your plan, which would seem to only maintain the lack of resources to improve the society as a whole.


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A better question would be why it hasn't happened already, given such a champion of the poor and underprivileged has been elected as their representative for I don't know how many terms now.


You would have to provide some specifics there as that makes no sense. How long has there been a problem with educational equality? I know there is still a divide here regardless of how hard some try to correct it. The wealthy want to take money from the public schools to offset some of their costs in private schools even now. One of the local school boards made the national news when a conservative majority came in and immediately gutted the socio-economic diversity plans which had been hailed as on of the best in the nation. Now that majority has been replaced because the schools were screwed up in the process.

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Hard to blame anyone for throwing the poor under the bus when they've done it to themselves for so long.


Really? They voted to dissolve the public school system because the wealthy could afford private schools? That was mostly racial but the economic lines run very close to the racial lines. I see nothing in the way of data to support this calim at all.

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Less than "not perfect" given the data.


Less than not perfect can still be pretty damn good. How much less? 8)


Except in this case it is a lot less than not perfect. Near the level of epic fail. #-o

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Under numerous circumstances which is still continued to be ignored.


I've acknowledged faults and flaws, that the system isn't perfect. We're simply entertaining an idea. Short of outright agreement with you, how much more consideration should be given?


For weighted voting based on what appears to be assumptions? None.

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I'm not ignoring it. I'm simply lending it the consideration it deserves. I accept that there will be demand for that which can be destructive. Society, at the same time it demands, recognizes that which is ultimately destructive and takes action accordingly.


Except that negates the premise of your statements concerning compensation being equal to demand beign filled which in turn is equal to a benefit to society.


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No, it accounts for the fact that humans are imperfect beings.


How does it do that? It shows the concept is beyond imperfect, but that does not cause any corrective action.

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The more caveates which must be included the more flawed the plan.


You mean the more I don't provide a satisfactory answer to your questions, the more you believe the plan is flawed. :razz:


No, the more flaws that cannot be satisfactorily supported by facts nor explained the less likely this plan is to work. Now I give it only a ~30% chance of being tried and then a ~85% cahnce that it would fail outright.

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Or perhaps, cleaner, while students cleaning up their own mess just might work out fine.


As long as you did not mind the injuries and lack of real education resulting from this plan. It shows a clear lack of understanding of the larger picture in favor of a knee-jerk reaction.


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Yes, there is always the risk of injury with physical activity. You think the risk is higher for custodial work as opposed to P.E. or recess?


Custodial work. There are cleaning supplies, electrical equipment, and the like which are not normally a concern.

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I fail to see how early work experience doesn't qualify as education especially when there is no risk of being terminated.


Except the risk of termination is more along the lines of a permanent termination. What would being taught to clean do for you in the study of science, math, or languages? Not very much. Considering the level of education provided in many of the poorer areas, the loss of any class time would be bad.

That seems to be the basis for the failure of the plan. There is a basic failure to see the obvious.

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Are knee-jerk reactions necessarily bad?


No, but the probability they are is higher since there is no thought put into them.

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Is this a knee-jerk reaction or perhaps and idea from someone who's been around the block and knows what works off the top of their head?


Right, and perhaps there will be a magic lamp that gives us the answer too. :problem:

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But the doctors are making more, despite being in larger number.


Please give me the evidence to support this claim. The income in 1900 compared to that in 1990 for a GP MD would be a good step in this case.


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Your data clearly showed that doctors today are making inordinately more than they did in 1900. I thought inflation, maybe, but the numbers looked so much out of the ballpark that I didn't give it further thought. What'd I miss?


The fact I did not give data for doctors for one. Not many doctors earn $17,593.00 or less a year.

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I submit that their services are of higher quality now than it once was and that this contributes significantly to compensation.


And you have evidence of this where?


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Evidence that we pool more intensive resources into medical training today than we did 100 years ago, which translates into better, more valuable physicians...really?


You have supported a claim with another claim. How much of the relative resources were put into medical training in the two periods?


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Not every good idea or plan succeeds and part of the cause is bad luck. Not every bad idea or plan fails and part of the cause is good luck.


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No, part of the cause is chance and chance alone.


Yes it is. If you have the best business plan in the world and sufficient capital for twice more than the average growth curve for a business of this type, but a simple act of bad luck can offset all of the planning and preparation and kill that business.[/quote]

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An act of bad luck? Huh?


You do not understand an event consisting of bad luck happening?

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If you have a business that is isolated because a freak storm causes a landslide which cannot be cleared for months after you have exhausted your capital and closed your business, what is the cause other than chance that the business failed.


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Nothing, you're just getting "colorful" with the outcome's description based on what is considered fortunate and what is not. We could call it a spell, a curse, or if there is good luck, a blessing. 8-[


You can play with semantics all you like, the cause and effect are still based on random acts which cannot be controlled or predicted .... luck.

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Oh he got his luck alright, just not the form he was hoping for.


So luck does make of break a plan? :eh:


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Nah, luck is just a way of describing how the chips fell.


If that is the extent of your understanding of the impact of luck, I cannot explain it any more simply. Good or bad would describe how the chips fell and the fact they fell would be described as luck.

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I'm sure. I'm not as concerned with that as I am the existing poorer classes multiplying on their own.


Evidence of this claim?


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:-s What claim?


"I'm not as concerned with that as I am the existing poorer classes multiplying on their own."

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The fact that they their contributions were no longer valuable enough to be further compensated by that particular employer? Am I to assume this particular person is so unlucky that they cannot find a job within a reasonable amount of time either without falling into poverty?


No, you can accept the facts that in a bad economy you may not get a job regardless of how hard you try due to being unlucky enough to have lost a job if several million jobs have disappeared nationwide. How long can you survive without income?


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Long enough to find work or, if necessary, adapt to where I no longer need it. 8)


So how exactly do you no longer need a job to stay out of poverty? These "off the cuff" assertions are harder and harder to integrate into the position.


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Other than the area being poor, is there a more valid reason why schools in poor areas are in the state that they're in?


Racial bigotry is often the basic reason. Economic bigotry is another.


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I agree wholeheartedly. :mrgreen:


So how did the poor minorities do that to themselves? :-k

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I mean, it can't possibly be as simple as folks generally not giving a rat's ass, can it?


Yes, if you can afford to send your children to a private school why support a public school for the poor minorities?


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I know. Doesn't make a hell of alot of sense to me either. On the flip side, fostering a destructive social model, generation after generation, might give a clue that some demographics couldn't care less about education in the first place.


Sort of like ignorance not being corrected and thus creating a perpetual cycle? Wait, that is one of the causes of poverty according to some ecperts.

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Naw, that would be too simple. There must be another explanation. I hear there are statues that bleed too. Those must be miracles.


Just as claiming those who are poor are so because they really want to be based on a pure assumption.


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Good thing no one's made that claim.


How then do you make the claim the poor have done all of this damage to themselves? Or are you saying it is not an assumption and there will be data following?

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A basic human right decided that it is such by who, exactly? Sounds like something that can be changed.


In our society it can be changed by the agreement of the majority of the state legislators in 2/3 of the states.


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As can the requirement on who/how many must agree in order to change X.


Only AFTER the number agrees or there is a significant civil war.


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At any rate, this can be averted by empowering the middle class...now.


How is the middle class NOT empowered compared to the poor now? You claim the poor are voting things for themselves when they are NOT a majority, which makes the claim false. Proposing to correct the situation on such a false claim does not make the situation as it was claimed.


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There needn't be a majority...only a majority of votes.


How is there a minority of votes when the poor are not a majority compared to the middle class and have a lower level of voter turnout? All of the data is against this claim.

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You're concentrating too hard on the weighting and not hard enough on sheer numbers of votes.


Weighting toward the higher incomes while the sheer numbers are mostly falling in income level refutes what I am saying in what fashion?


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It doesn't. I agree that the poor component is growing, for other reasons, but it will eventually be too late to do anything to reverse the trend. What do you suggest


Election reforms. Taking the corporate donations out of the election process and eliminated the super PACs so the elections are not as much bought by the highest bidder. Fact checking of ads and independent ads correcting inaccurate claims which are not tied to any party or election. Term limits might also be necessary.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:41 am 
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Still with ya. Just busy again. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:39 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
Still with ya. Just busy again. 8)


Likely story ... everyone knows there is still a recession so there is nothing going on. :crazy:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:17 am 
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An unusual concept on the worth of teachers to society .....

http://times-journal.com/news/article_1 ... 3ce6c.html

He needs to make enough that he can say no, in regards to temptation. ... Teachers need to make the money that they need to make. There needs to be a balance there. If you double what you're paying education, you know what's going to happen? I've heard the comment many times, ‘Well, the quality of education's going to go up.' That's never proven to happen, guys.
"It's a Biblical principle. If you double a teacher's pay scale, you'll attract people who aren't called to teach.

"To go in and raise someone's child for eight hours a day, or many people's children for eight hours a day, requires a calling. It better be a calling in your life. I know I wouldn't want to do it, OK?

"And these teachers that are called to teach, regardless of the pay scale, they would teach. It's just in them to do. It's the ability that God give 'em. And there are also some teachers, it wouldn't matter how much you would pay them, they would still perform to the same capacity.

"If you don't keep that in balance, you're going to attract people who are not called, who don't need to be teaching our children. So, everything has a balance."

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Yes, and someone voting in opposition to me essentially does the same thing now.?


You know better than that. The current opposing vote on negates a vote, but a vote WEIGHTED higher than yours would do more than just offset.


Correct, and you very well know that some votes should be weighted more than others. The trick is coming up with a system that works and one where a sufficiently meaningless number of folks cry foul.

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No, that's the exact concern.


How can they do that when they are not a majority? Your claims are not backed up by facts.




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Doesn't have to be a majority so much as it having to be enough relative to the other groups present.


Sorry, but that is pure BS. Unless there is a majority vote there is no passage of anything in the US. Thus, unless another group agrees with that view it does not happen and if that passes your claim is invalid concernign the poor giving themselves anything.


Actually, that's exactly what I was trying to say. An the underclass grows, so does sympathy for it. It will garner support from other groups--to a point. Having such influence on other groups doesn't negate their ability to get what they want out of government, it only enhances it.

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Poor voters generally do not vote as often nor as consistently as those making more money, so this goes against your position too.


It works against it, but it doesn't necessarily invalidate it.

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It seems to be a cse where the non-poor seem to have thrown the poor under the bus so to speak. The inequality in education and training I found referenced would only come about with the majority non-poor voting to limit the resources spent on education for the poor.


Think there might be a good reason behind that, or are we sticking with the notion that someone is simply throwing another under the bus for none other than bigotry?

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If you're equating "poor" with those living at or under the poverty line, maybe. I'm looking at it more from a variable standpoint.


What variable would that be other than "not-rich"? It seems everything in this plan is an undefined variable ... :-


No no, variable as in measurable income. You can draw lines anywhere you want and call the slices what you will. The weighting curve remains a function that, granted, we've yet to define, but I think you get the idea.

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The middle class is getting smaller because of the current system.


OK, how then is the poor vote, which is the lowest turnout of all of the groups causing this change exactly? It seems the cause is more in line with the wealthy earning more and not allowing the rest of the groups to have any share.


It's not just the poor vote allowing this to happen, unfortunately. The middle class is effectively voting against itself.

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If that is to change, the power of the rich must be tempered and also shifted away from the poorer classes that support them.


The poorer classes vote in support of the rich? Yet the rich would have their votes weighted more than the poor to dilute this effect?
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No, enhanced weighting of middle class votes would work more against that.

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So how would your plan increase the educational spendign for the poor in the Delta, which was your example. The vote of the poorer members is supposed to be diluted in your plan, which would seem to only maintain the lack of resources to improve the society as a whole.


My plan wouldn't necessarily increase educational spending in a place like the delta.

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A better question would be why it hasn't happened already, given such a champion of the poor and underprivileged has been elected as their representative for I don't know how many terms now.


You would have to provide some specifics there as that makes no sense.


Bennie Thompson.

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How long has there been a problem with educational equality?


What do you consider a problem? It's declined since I've been alive, if that's what you mean.

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I know there is still a divide here regardless of how hard some try to correct it. The wealthy want to take money from the public schools to offset some of their costs in private schools even now.


Nothing neceesarily wrong with that. Would have been nice when my daughter was attending private school.

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One of the local school boards made the national news when a conservative majority came in and immediately gutted the socio-economic diversity plans which had been hailed as on of the best in the nation. Now that majority has been replaced because the schools were screwed up in the process.


Interesting. Screwed up how?

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Hard to blame anyone for throwing the poor under the bus when they've done it to themselves for so long.


Really? They voted to dissolve the public school system because the wealthy could afford private schools?


That's an interesting perspective. My take on it is that you have a group that doesn't sufficiently value education in the first place and another with common sense enough to keep from pissing away revenue.

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That was mostly racial but the economic lines run very close to the racial lines. I see nothing in the way of data to support this calim at all.


Data to support what claim, that people are responsible for their own plight?

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Except in this case it is a lot less than not perfect. Near the level of epic fail. #-o


And that's based on what data, exactly? :razz:

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For weighted voting based on what appears to be assumptions? None.


Are we having fun yet? :mrgreen:

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No, it accounts for the fact that humans are imperfect beings.


How does it do that?


Same way we do it now.

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It shows the concept is beyond imperfect, but that does not cause any corrective action.


Corrective action for what, exactly? The only change is in voting. Laws regarding controlled substances would remain unaffected. Are you trying to tell me that the middle class is over-medicated and that we'd devolve to a state of collective drug addiction? :-k

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No, the more flaws that cannot be satisfactorily supported by facts nor explained the less likely this plan is to work. Now I give it only a ~30% chance of being tried and then a ~85% cahnce that it would fail outright.


Well, you're a lot more generous than I on the being tried part, at least.

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Custodial work. There are cleaning supplies, electrical equipment, and the like which are not normally a concern.


Alright so the risk is too high to consider, you're saying.

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I fail to see how early work experience doesn't qualify as education especially when there is no risk of being terminated.


Except the risk of termination is more along the lines of a permanent termination.[/quote]

:problem: Really?

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What would being taught to clean do for you in the study of science, math, or languages? Not very much. Considering the level of education provided in many of the poorer areas, the loss of any class time would be bad.


Or perhaps, hardly a loss at all. My early jobs did squat for me with regard to science, math, and languages. Though they did teach me what work was and how to interact with people. That's probably key here.

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Are knee-jerk reactions necessarily bad?


No, but the probability they are is higher since there is no thought put into them.


Is there not, or have they been faced with a similar scenario enough such that it becomes instinctive?

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Is this a knee-jerk reaction or perhaps and idea from someone who's been around the block and knows what works off the top of their head?


Right, and perhaps there will be a magic lamp that gives us the answer too. :problem:


So you're unwilling to entertain the notion at all then because, perhaps, someone's going to die from performing custodial work and miss out on all that great education they'd otherwise get at the underfunded school. Maybe, if we simply threw more money at it, we'd learn in a few years what some folks know now. Then again, maybe we won't.

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Your data clearly showed that doctors today are making inordinately more than they did in 1900. I thought inflation, maybe, but the numbers looked so much out of the ballpark that I didn't give it further thought. What'd I miss?


The fact I did not give data for doctors for one. Not many doctors earn $17,593.00 or less a year.


Then sub medical service workers where I've said doctors. Magnitude of the increases over time are the same.

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You have supported a claim with another claim. How much of the relative resources were put into medical training in the two periods?


If you want unit hours of schooling, training, and the difference in sheer volume of literature now vs. then, I don't have the numbers, sorry.

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Not every good idea or plan succeeds and part of the cause is bad luck. Not every bad idea or plan fails and part of the cause is good luck.


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You do not understand an event consisting of bad luck happening?


I understand an act, an event, and how the outcome can be described, yes. It sounded to me like you were describing one that was targetting failure--i.e. an act of bad luck. A case of it, maybe.

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You can play with semantics all you like, the cause and effect are still based on random acts which cannot be controlled or predicted .... luck.


Risk, confidence, neither or both of which is necessarily quantifiable....chance. :mrgreen:

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If that is the extent of your understanding of the impact of luck, I cannot explain it any more simply. Good or bad would describe how the chips fell and the fact they fell would be described as luck.


No, falling is simply an event. How they fell, where they ended up, etc., can be described in terms of luck whether it be good or bad. Are you using the terms luck and chance interchangeably?

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:-s What claim?


"I'm not as concerned with that as I am the existing poorer classes multiplying on their own."


You'll have to take my word that I am concerned. Are you suggesting that the poorer classes aren't multiplying?

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Long enough to find work or, if necessary, adapt to where I no longer need it. 8)


So how exactly do you no longer need a job to stay out of poverty? These "off the cuff" assertions are harder and harder to integrate into the position.


It's not off the cuff nor difficult to understand. I will find work or I will adapt so that I no longer need to work. It's that simple. Now, I may by definition fall into poverty, but that won't matter either because I would no longer be an economic factor anyway, at least not on paper.


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So how did the poor minorities do that to themselves? :-k


For one, allowing their own racial bigotry to get in the way of improving themselves.

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Sort of like ignorance not being corrected and thus creating a perpetual cycle? Wait, that is one of the causes of poverty according to some ecperts.


Right, and the cause of that cause....see my previous comment.

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How then do you make the claim the poor have done all of this damage to themselves? Or are you saying it is not an assumption and there will be data following?


Other than the fact of their continued existence and the path they appear to be going on their own, what data do you need?

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Only AFTER the number agrees or there is a significant civil war.


That's not necessarily so bad. Where might we be today without the early 1860's as we know it?

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Election reforms. Taking the corporate donations out of the election process and eliminated the super PACs so the elections are not as much bought by the highest bidder. Fact checking of ads and independent ads correcting inaccurate claims which are not tied to any party or election. Term limits might also be necessary.


What % chance of happening do you give this?

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Likely story ... everyone knows there is still a recession so there is nothing going on.


Sheesh, I get my balls busted from all directions! :crazy:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:29 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Yes, and someone voting in opposition to me essentially does the same thing now.?


You know better than that. The current opposing vote on negates a vote, but a vote WEIGHTED higher than yours would do more than just offset.


Fosgate wrote:
Correct, and you very well know that some votes should be weighted more than others. The trick is coming up with a system that works and one where a sufficiently meaningless number of folks cry foul.


No, your premise is that some votes should be weighted more than others. I see no real difference in that approach from eliminating some people from voting at all and there should always be a meaningful number of people who would always oppose such a position.

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No, that's the exact concern.


How can they do that when they are not a majority? Your claims are not backed up by facts.




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Doesn't have to be a majority so much as it having to be enough relative to the other groups present.


Sorry, but that is pure BS. Unless there is a majority vote there is no passage of anything in the US. Thus, unless another group agrees with that view it does not happen and if that passes your claim is invalid concernign the poor giving themselves anything.


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Actually, that's exactly what I was trying to say. An the underclass grows, so does sympathy for it. It will garner support from other groups--to a point. Having such influence on other groups doesn't negate their ability to get what they want out of government, it only enhances it.


This would tend to indicate the weighting would not have any effect since the group with the highest weight can have said sympathy and still vote in a way you seem ot oppose.

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Poor voters generally do not vote as often nor as consistently as those making more money, so this goes against your position too.


It works against it, but it doesn't necessarily invalidate it.


It does negate it because the premise was supposedly to prevent the poor from voting things for themselves, which cannot occur if they are not the majority and also do not vote. The weighting would thus have no real effect on the outcome of the elections given the facts of voting, but would go a long way in discriminating against a portion of the population.

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It seems to be a case where the non-poor seem to have thrown the poor under the bus so to speak. The inequality in education and training I found referenced would only come about with the majority non-poor voting to limit the resources spent on education for the poor.


Think there might be a good reason behind that, or are we sticking with the notion that someone is simply throwing another under the bus for none other than bigotry?


Bigotry would play a very large part in the situation given the history of discrimination in the southern states. I know of one county that eliminated the public school system rather than desegregate it. That tells us a lot about the reaons for educational inequality in that area and in areas with similar histories.

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If you're equating "poor" with those living at or under the poverty line, maybe. I'm looking at it more from a variable standpoint.


What variable would that be other than "not-rich"? It seems everything in this plan is an undefined variable ... :-


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No no, variable as in measurable income. You can draw lines anywhere you want and call the slices what you will. The weighting curve remains a function that, granted, we've yet to define, but I think you get the idea.


Yes, I have the idea there is no good way to try to work such a division in the real world.

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The middle class is getting smaller because of the current system.


OK, how then is the poor vote, which is the lowest turnout of all of the groups causing this change exactly? It seems the cause is more in line with the wealthy earning more and not allowing the rest of the groups to have any share.


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It's not just the poor vote allowing this to happen, unfortunately. The middle class is effectively voting against itself.


But you are trying to give the middle class more weight .... to correct the problem .... by allowing it to vote against itself. ](*,) :-

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If that is to change, the power of the rich must be tempered and also shifted away from the poorer classes that support them.


The poorer classes vote in support of the rich? Yet the rich would have their votes weighted more than the poor to dilute this effect?
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No, enhanced weighting of middle class votes would work more against that.


But you just stated the middle class voted against itself, which would mean the weighting should make it worse rather than better. It really sounds like the beginning of a plan to only allow people to vote who will vote the "right way".

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So how would your plan increase the educational spendign for the poor in the Delta, which was your example. The vote of the poorer members is supposed to be diluted in your plan, which would seem to only maintain the lack of resources to improve the society as a whole.


My plan wouldn't necessarily increase educational spending in a place like the delta.


I thought as much. It would not do anything very positive from what I am seeing.

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A better question would be why it hasn't happened already, given such a champion of the poor and underprivileged has been elected as their representative for I don't know how many terms now.


You would have to provide some specifics there as that makes no sense.


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Bennie Thompson.


One Congressman can do that much? Especially in the area of education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennie_Thompson

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How long has there been a problem with educational equality?


What do you consider a problem?


The information I found indicating the majority of the poor and Afican Americans were illiterate, the public education was underfunded and inadequate, and the popularity of private schools for the wealthier citizens.

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It's declined since I've been alive, if that's what you mean.


If those figures were after a decline I would not have wanted to see the old system.

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I know there is still a divide here regardless of how hard some try to correct it. The wealthy want to take money from the public schools to offset some of their costs in private schools even now.


Nothing neceesarily wrong with that. Would have been nice when my daughter was attending private school.


I am sure it would have, but wouldn't a good education for the deneral population be a better investment?

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One of the local school boards made the national news when a conservative majority came in and immediately gutted the socio-economic diversity plans which had been hailed as on of the best in the nation. Now that majority has been replaced because the schools were screwed up in the process.


Interesting. Screwed up how?


They started trying to set up "neighborhood" schools, which was actually an economic segregation plan. The legal challenges based on the discrimination aspect started shortly afterward. The accreditation of the school system was nearly lost due to the inequality of the education that would have resulted.

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Hard to blame anyone for throwing the poor under the bus when they've done it to themselves for so long.


Really? They voted to dissolve the public school system because the wealthy could afford private schools?


That's an interesting perspective. My take on it is that you have a group that doesn't sufficiently value education in the first place and another with common sense enough to keep from pissing away revenue.


I suppose the lack of education would tend to cause the benefits of an education to be lost, especially in an area with a large historical bigotry factor.

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That was mostly racial but the economic lines run very close to the racial lines. I see nothing in the way of data to support this calim at all.


Data to support what claim, that people are responsible for their own plight?


Yes, you know one generation after the more or less granting of civil rights should have made everything equal from that point onward ..... right?

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Except in this case it is a lot less than not perfect. Near the level of epic fail. #-o


And that's based on what data, exactly? :razz:


The data you provided, of course .... that is why it is an epic fail. :razz:

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For weighted voting based on what appears to be assumptions? None.


Are we having fun yet? :mrgreen:


Define fun .... :mrgreen:

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No, it accounts for the fact that humans are imperfect beings.


How does it do that?


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Same way we do it now.


If it is the same way there is no reason for the changes then, right? :-$

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It shows the concept is beyond imperfect, but that does not cause any corrective action.


Corrective action for what, exactly? The only change is in voting. Laws regarding controlled substances would remain unaffected. Are you trying to tell me that the middle class is over-medicated and that we'd devolve to a state of collective drug addiction? :-k


Haven't you said the middle class should have more weight in voting and that it also votes against itself, which clearly shows no corrective trend with the change.

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No, the more flaws that cannot be satisfactorily supported by facts nor explained the less likely this plan is to work. Now I give it only a ~30% chance of being tried and then a ~85% cahnce that it would fail outright.


Well, you're a lot more generous than I on the being tried part, at least.


There are a lot of folks who dislike the poor who would love to see their vote removed from elections in any way possible.

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Custodial work. There are cleaning supplies, electrical equipment, and the like which are not normally a concern.


Alright so the risk is too high to consider, you're saying.


Higher than the laws normally allow now.

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I fail to see how early work experience doesn't qualify as education especially when there is no risk of being terminated.


Except the risk of termination is more along the lines of a permanent termination.


:problem: Really? [/quote]

Imagine a child mixing two cleaners by mistake. One has ammonia and one is bleach base. A small room could lead to a very small box.

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What would being taught to clean do for you in the study of science, math, or languages? Not very much. Considering the level of education provided in many of the poorer areas, the loss of any class time would be bad.


Or perhaps, hardly a loss at all. My early jobs did squat for me with regard to science, math, and languages. Though they did teach me what work was and how to interact with people. That's probably key here.


You went to a public school in a poor district? The education and work is sufficiently different from work in place of education during the school day.

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Are knee-jerk reactions necessarily bad?


No, but the probability they are is higher since there is no thought put into them.


Is there not, or have they been faced with a similar scenario enough such that it becomes instinctive?


Or the instinct is based on some other factor.

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Is this a knee-jerk reaction or perhaps and idea from someone who's been around the block and knows what works off the top of their head?


Right, and perhaps there will be a magic lamp that gives us the answer too. :problem:


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So you're unwilling to entertain the notion at all then because, perhaps, someone's going to die from performing custodial work and miss out on all that great education they'd otherwise get at the underfunded school.


No, I am unwilling to entertain the notion because the situation would be the children working a menial jobs instead of being educated. The odd thing is that was a fairly similar set of descriptions as was indicated in the information on the educational levels in the Delta.

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Maybe, if we simply threw more money at it, we'd learn in a few years what some folks know now. Then again, maybe we won't.


Maybe a better system could be built rather than just "throwing money" at the problem. some indepth programs would be helpful.

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Your data clearly showed that doctors today are making inordinately more than they did in 1900. I thought inflation, maybe, but the numbers looked so much out of the ballpark that I didn't give it further thought. What'd I miss?


The fact I did not give data for doctors for one. Not many doctors earn $17,593.00 or less a year.


Then sub medical service workers where I've said doctors. Magnitude of the increases over time are the same.


The magnitude of increases over time ARE very similar for the AVERAGE wages as well as the medical service. That is not inordinately more in my view, but it may be in yours.

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If that is the extent of your understanding of the impact of luck, I cannot explain it any more simply. Good or bad would describe how the chips fell and the fact they fell would be described as luck.


No, falling is simply an event. How they fell, where they ended up, etc., can be described in terms of luck whether it be good or bad. Are you using the terms luck and chance interchangeably?


They are interchangeable. The chance is a probability, which is luck. Good luck if the outcome is in your favor and bad luck if it is not, because there is not a 100% probability of either failure or success.

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"I'm not as concerned with that as I am the existing poorer classes multiplying on their own."


You'll have to take my word that I am concerned. Are you suggesting that the poorer classes aren't multiplying?


They are increasing, but you claimed they were doing so on their own.

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Long enough to find work or, if necessary, adapt to where I no longer need it. 8)


So how exactly do you no longer need a job to stay out of poverty? These "off the cuff" assertions are harder and harder to integrate into the position.


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It's not off the cuff nor difficult to understand. I will find work or I will adapt so that I no longer need to work. It's that simple. Now, I may by definition fall into poverty, but that won't matter either because I would no longer be an economic factor anyway, at least not on paper.


So you just change the definitions?


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So how did the poor minorities do that to themselves? :-k


For one, allowing their own racial bigotry to get in the way of improving themselves.


Their racial bigotry keeps the educational system underfunded in their areas?

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Sort of like ignorance not being corrected and thus creating a perpetual cycle? Wait, that is one of the causes of poverty according to some ecperts.


Right, and the cause of that cause....see my previous comment.


Ahh the poor want to be poor due to their bigotry of other races?

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How then do you make the claim the poor have done all of this damage to themselves? Or are you saying it is not an assumption and there will be data following?


Other than the fact of their continued existence and the path they appear to be going on their own, what data do you need?


Data showing they are actuall going on their own would be a good start. Assuming it is their fault is a common fault with many Libertarians who have no direct experience with poverty.

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Only AFTER the number agrees or there is a significant civil war.


That's not necessarily so bad. Where might we be today without the early 1860's as we know it?


I was pretty bad for a very large portion of the US population during that period and for a long time afterward.

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Election reforms. Taking the corporate donations out of the election process and eliminated the super PACs so the elections are not as much bought by the highest bidder. Fact checking of ads and independent ads correcting inaccurate claims which are not tied to any party or election. Term limits might also be necessary.


What % chance of happening do you give this?


That depends on how many of the GOP are in Congress at the time. They tend to support the corporate incentives a little more than the Democrats

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Likely story ... everyone knows there is still a recession so there is nothing going on.


Sheesh, I get my balls busted from all directions! :crazy:

'That is because you deserve it so much .... :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:35 am 
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'That is because you deserve it so much ....


Makes me tough. :twisted:

Consider the last word yours, my friend. :mrgreen:

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