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 Post subject: On suicide.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:26 pm 
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When one has no moral obligation and one perceives life as a trash tin would it be morally acceptable to end ones own life?


Last edited by mothy on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:54 pm 
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I have always viewed suicide as generally a coward's way out. In the case of terminal illness where there is great pain and/or disability, I could see possible justiifcation for such an action, but for those who just have a messed up life I cannot. I firmly believe it is better to work out of the mess. Everyone has the ability to make a positive impact on society and in some cases those people who believe they have a mess in their lives do not see the benefits others may get from them.

The old movie "It's a Wonderful Life" is cheesy and corny, but there is a big dose of real understanding on the interaction benefits in it.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:14 am 
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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:59 am 
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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Suicides are like a man with a big stomach. They are both fed up with life.

mothy


Flippancy aside the rise in suicides and the growing economic depression go hand in hand.

I don't know how true this chart is but it appears the east have got it bad.

http://chartsbin.com/view/prm


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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:56 pm 
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I don't like the odds for living, or not living as the case may be, in Lithuania or Russia for that matter. Life must be pretty rough for them.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:05 am 
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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:39 am 
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Seriously, you're an ass and talking about something you are totally clueless about. Why are you an ass? Because you don't know pain.

Yeah, you don’t know what pain is. Really, what pain is. Not just what physical but also emotional pain is. I do. Currently, I’m recovering from a double cervical fusion due to two herniated discs and a bone spur that was putting pressure on a root nerve. I’ve been in pain for years, seven to be exact, 24 hours a day some times and hardley anything on another day. Took a good blow to the top of the head, late one evening, that caused that to occur.
I’ve been through physical therapy, exercises, traction….and I’ve strived to maintain my health, do my therapy and go beyond and keep in very good shape. Finally, the pain got so bad that I went the final step, surgery to correct the condition and fuse part of my spine together with titanium plate and screws. Made sure I was in good health before hand. I could already to 75 push ups in a row and 50 situps in a row, for my sets.
For these past seven years I’ve been working with doctors and nurses, whom I have to give them a rating of my pain level, with 0 being the lowest and 10 being the highest. To get to this point where surgery was the last option is only a 6, or 7 at the most. But it could be constant, day in, day out. So, had the surgery right before New Years in this year of 2012. A complete success for the surgeon, and me. He corrected the stenosis, pressure on the spinal cord, but also whittled that bone spur down. He says that he KNOWS that cause has been corrected. But I still have pain. Currently, its at the 1 to 5 levels, but only with the help of narcotics, legally prescribed to moi, of course. He thinks since this happened so long ago, it may take some time to heal the nerves…..like 3,4, or more months. But, if I am not better, pain wise, in the next 2 months we may need to do another MRI, or maybe a cat scan.
Keep in mind that I am only talking about physical pain, and not emotional pain. So I’ve been through this but you know what? I also know what pain level 10 feels like! When I was about 37, I contracted meningioencphalitis , viral in nature. That gave me a level pain 10 and beyond. My brain was swelling, my headaches, well, these were special headaches that pained me so much I started vomiting. At one point I literally felt like I would rather be dead than to endure the pain any longer. Of course if someone were to put a pistol in my hand at that point? No, not quite there yet.
I think that I know physical pain. Emotional pain? I believe that I have managed to keep those levels way downs to just the ones, or maybe a two on occasion. Emotional pain?

Well, my sister decided to take her life about 9 years ago. She was in her late fifties, divorced from an alcoholic and verbally abusive husband. Had a son, in elementary school at the time they divorced, and she had to raise him without any support from this husband who could not keep a steady job.
She started getting pains. In her legs, arms, neck, you name it. Went through tests, and tests, and tests. Their final prognosis was fibromyalgia. I had never heard about it, has not any other people in the family. Some of us got on the net and saw that a lot of so called experts saw fibromyalgia as more of a mental issue instead of a physical malady. I started thinking that nah, my sister has mental issues that she needs to deal with, get a grip, get some help from a professional in emotional health.
Well now, that didn’t help, she was taking a shitload of different medications and mood enhancers, and she was still in pain. I’m still thinking It’s all in her head. Things go on and on, we get together for cookouts, go to the 4th of July fireworks with the kids, who are older now, her’s being 16.
One day at work I get a call from my Wife. She says my nephew, her son, came home and found my Sister, in the garage, hung from the rafters. Thing is, night before she tried to commit herself to St. Vincens Hospital that has a wing she was familiar with. They had her come home the night before because the evaluation could find no cause to keep her. I'm at her house, with my wife, trying to console her son. What do I say, other than we love you and are here for you. The house phone rings, while the coroner and the family was still present. I answered it and it was St. Vincents doing a follow up call to see how my sister was doing. I informned them that their services were no longer needed as she had taken her life the night before. We end up having her son in our home for the next two years when he then graduated and went to college.So, yeah, I think I know pain pretty well. I also know that my sister knew pain, probably better than I did, both emotionally as well as physically.

I have no idea what sort of pain her son is in. But, from where he is now, did finish college, has held bs jobs, is currently unemployed and is a jesus freak that has no clear ideas of what he wants for his future. We never could convince him to seek help to relieve his grief as we were unprepared, and not capable of providing him what he needed. I believe his emotional pain is pretty high up on the scale t this day.
I remember what a pain level 10 feels like. I have no idea what a pain level 10, as measured emotionally, and possibly along with physical pain could possibly feel like. But, I do know this. I would dare not call anybody a coward for ending their pain because, I do not know what their pain felt like, at that last fleeting moment of their life.

But, you do, and feel an obligation to automatically brand someone a coward who take their life?

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:30 am 
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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:19 am 
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Since I "don't know pain" I wonder about those broken bones if have dealt wirth over the years in my hands, feet, and ribs. The last trip to the doctor for one of those had him telling me the hand was not broken until the x-rays. My employees know as they have seen me get a 2nd -3rd degree burn from a piece of metal at 300 C (not F) just before getting a phone call and having a calm conversation that did not indicate any problem. My tolerance for pain is fairly high compared to what most people tell me.

As for emotional pain. A while after my father died my mother had a massive heart attack. She was volunteering at a clinic and the doctor recognized the problem and called the ambulance immediately. The ambulance arrived with a defibrulator just as she went into cardiac arrest. If either of those two had not happened she would not have lived past that point. During this time my with was pregnant with our second child, after previously having a mid-term miscarriage. Over the next 18 nonths, my mother had 6 heart attacks and a stroke, which required me to decide each and every time she entered the hospital whether to have them use heroic measures to revive her. Given the history, it was a lot of decision over life or death for a loved one to have to make by anyone. She did not take the impacts well, as she was always active and now could not be. She could not eat her favorite foods or do the things she always had. It took a major toll on her and those of us ariound her. The last heart attack finally did the job, just before Thanksgiving. Also, while my wife was in the birthing classes I was upstairs in the surgical ICV with a collapsed lung being stubborn. Everyone seemed surprised that I was not passing out and more so that I drove myself to the doctor that freaked out and sent me to the hospital in the first place. Just after this my favorite grandmother developed Alzheimer's and required complete care in a nursing home. She was living in the 1940s and thought she was in some kind of jail although she did not know what she had done. Every visit involved begging for me to tell her what had happened and for me to help get her released from that prison. She too finally passed and got her release from that prison. So, no, I have not had any physical or emotional pain at all in my life from which to draw any conclusions.

I forgot my wife, who developed Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA), you know the kind John Carridine had
that crippled his hands, just after the birth of our first child. That has been a life long series of pain and complications to be sure. Combined with a period during which she fell and broke her leg in three places. That resulted in a large rod and several screws inserted in her leg and over a year to recover. Much of the initial months she could not move her leg at all. Followed by a heart attack before she was completely healed. The ER was going to send her home, but I suspected she had thrown a clot and argued with the doctor. The lab work finally showed the damage and she was treated. She had an erratic heart beat that often required a trip to the ER, which had finally been cured by heart surgery a year before the broken leg. They had noticed the artreties spasm but did nto think anything of it at the time. The main artery in her heart had spasmed until it closed, causing a heart attack. Again she was unable to do anything while they tried to stabilize that condition. It is hard to do so we have had several more trips to the ER as a result. One of the drugs which had been used to treat her RA has an uncommon side effect that allows it to reach a level which can sometimes become toxic to the optical nerves. This seems to be the case as her vision had been slowly deteriorating and the doctors can find no problems with her eyes. They do not know how bad it may get or if it may start to reverse at some point, but that is just a wait and see situation since the nerve is one thing there is little they can do to treat.

It is a good thing I do not know anything about pain and suffering as does SiberD ....... :-({|=

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:55 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:26 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Wayne, I was only trying to point out that there are different types of pain, physical, and mental and sometimes the both shall mix. Who are these cowards you speak of that commit suicide, and what you gives you the right to judge them to be cowards?

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:55 pm 
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I know there is emotional pain as well as physical pain, which might be some justification in the case of debilitating long term illness, but not for those who just have a messed up life. +

I knew a guy many years ago who had a lot of personal problems and felt that he could not handle them. His solution was to kill himself by sticking the barrel of a 20 ga. shotgun into his mouth and pulling the trigger. When he got out of the hospital he still had all of the previous personal problems along with some hefty medical bills, and some new personal problems resulting from the lack of a lower jaw.

The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before.

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