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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Being in a prone position, or reclining provides relief. I can get a great nights sleep, wake up and be in minimal pain. As the day goes on, with me walking or standing upright, or even sitting in a chair in the upright position, the pain gets worse as the day goes on.


Mild traction, maybe? Friend of mine that underwent neck surgery used to put her head in a sling every so often to relieve pressure off her neck bones and the cushions in between them.


I have seen those inflatable neck collars to stretch the neck, which could be used for just support in such a case.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Being in a prone position, or reclining provides relief. I can get a great nights sleep, wake up and be in minimal pain. As the day goes on, with me walking or standing upright, or even sitting in a chair in the upright position, the pain gets worse as the day goes on.


Mild traction, maybe? Friend of mine that underwent neck surgery used to put her head in a sling every so often to relieve pressure off her neck bones and the cushions in between them.


No, that probably wouldn't be a good idea now as they're wanting the fusion to complete making three vertebrae into one large one. Thats what the titanium plate screwed to the front is for. To keep everything in place while the cadaver bone that was placed where the discs used to be have ample time to be absorbed by the adjoining bone and totally fuse. Traction would run counter to that process.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:44 am 
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SiberD wrote:
But, getting back to suicide, I cannot fathom what my nephew, who found his Mom, has and is, going through.


I can't either. Must be very difficult, especially at his age and stage of development when it occurred. Since then, I think you mentioned that he has become a "Jesus-freak". Even folks with less fortunate experiences resort to the answers offered by religion and nation .... especially since both give a sense of security. The hard fact, and also the liberating fact, is that neither can offer a sense of security when there is no actual security in life. I mean, there is no security. Not in religion and not in the idea of nationhood. This is both difficult and liberating, isn't it? But for the experience your nephew is having .... to know that he is a human having an all-too common human experience of that sense of abondonment ...... which so many have.

We absoluteluy MUST go it alone inspite of culture and religion and politics, and yet we are all having similar experience.

Sometimes all one needs is a friend ..... a person to talk to without having to pay that person. Does your nephew know that he can call "just" to talk? Does he know that you "have his back?" Can he spill his beans without fear that the person listening will insist that he change in some way ..... even the jesus stuff? Does your nephew know that his emotional pain can be acknowledged and witnessed without anyone having to make it "better"? Don't make it better, .... just hear him out.

His mother ended her life inspite of his. There is no right or wrong, no judgement .... but this story is cause for one to feel basically 'unloved'. He probably feels that ... he probably feels 'unloved' at a very primal and basic level.

You are probably already doing what you can and I'm sure you are doing it wisely.

Sometimes listening without feeling the need to change or to make "better" is a challenge. From what I have learned about communication, men tend to want to offer solutions ..... because men tend to be solution oriented which is conditioned by culture. But in actually there are no solutions. Just listen and let him know that you are there. Let him be a jesus-freak for now. Invite him to tell you what is happening for him. There are no solutions to the inevitable pain of life. There is no actual religious or nationhood identity that will ultimately smooth the way for him or us, although cleaving to such identities do give temporary solace.

Your nephew probably feels abandoned. But of course who wouldn't? This is not an individual experience as much as it is the human experience. We are not separate. What one feels we all feel. Anyone who has lost their mother to suicide will feel abandoned. This is the human condition. And while your nephew must realize this, he must also mourn as if he is the only person this has ever happened to because not a single person on Earth has eperienced and felt it as he has.

I dislike giving advice .... especially when it has not been asked for ...... But I empathize with your nephew and his actual experience of losing his mother to suicide. It's primal. If your own mum ends her life inspite of your own ..... what does that mean for me? Am I not worthy? Am I not beautiful? Am I not loved in that primal sense?

Does your nephew know, both cognitively and emotionally, that you have his back? Does he have some sense of connection? Because we all just need to feel connected, or we otherwise seek out Jesus, which is also valid but not ultimately real. Or we seek a connection with something else .... like a flag which symbolizes a connection, a sense of belonging ... or maybe even a gang for some.

Keep us posted Siber D. Stay connected.


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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:05 am 
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SiberD wrote:
Traction would run counter to that process.


Indeed. The plate maintains desired spacing, no traction needed. Does it eventually come out? Looks permanent given where it is.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Yes, its a permanent titanium plate and screws.

And AF, I will answer about my nephew when I have the time which I currently do not.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Suicide cannot be judged. Simple isn't it.

I was never satisfied with satisfaction. A satisfied customer never wants more (greed is a further issue).

When a philosopher becomes satisfied he ceases to be one.

Mothy

Satisfy the society and then exert total control over them.

Mothy

And more important the great Ghandi

Earth provides every mans need but not every mans greed

And full circle alot of suicides are down to poverty.


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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Quote:
Satisfy the society and then exert total control over them.

Mothy


But, but, Mothy.... you don't have the power....you know,...

the power of the babe.

What babe?

The babe with the power.

What power?

The power of voodoo!

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:18 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
SiberD wrote:
But, getting back to suicide, I cannot fathom what my nephew, who found his Mom, has and is, going through.


I can't either. Must be very difficult, especially at his age and stage of development when it occurred. Since then, I think you mentioned that he has become a "Jesus-freak". Even folks with less fortunate experiences resort to the answers offered by religion and nation .... especially since both give a sense of security. The hard fact, and also the liberating fact, is that neither can offer a sense of security when there is no actual security in life. I mean, there is no security. Not in religion and not in the idea of nationhood. This is both difficult and liberating, isn't it? But for the experience your nephew is having .... to know that he is a human having an all-too common human experience of that sense of abondonment ...... which so many have.

We absoluteluy MUST go it alone inspite of culture and religion and politics, and yet we are all having similar experience.

Sometimes all one needs is a friend ..... a person to talk to without having to pay that person. Does your nephew know that he can call "just" to talk? Does he know that you "have his back?" Can he spill his beans without fear that the person listening will insist that he change in some way ..... even the jesus stuff? Does your nephew know that his emotional pain can be acknowledged and witnessed without anyone having to make it "better"? Don't make it better, .... just hear him out.

His mother ended her life inspite of his. There is no right or wrong, no judgement .... but this story is cause for one to feel basically 'unloved'. He probably feels that ... he probably feels 'unloved' at a very primal and basic level.

You are probably already doing what you can and I'm sure you are doing it wisely.

Sometimes listening without feeling the need to change or to make "better" is a challenge. From what I have learned about communication, men tend to want to offer solutions ..... because men tend to be solution oriented which is conditioned by culture. But in actually there are no solutions. Just listen and let him know that you are there. Let him be a jesus-freak for now. Invite him to tell you what is happening for him. There are no solutions to the inevitable pain of life. There is no actual religious or nationhood identity that will ultimately smooth the way for him or us, although cleaving to such identities do give temporary solace.

Your nephew probably feels abandoned. But of course who wouldn't? This is not an individual experience as much as it is the human experience. We are not separate. What one feels we all feel. Anyone who has lost their mother to suicide will feel abandoned. This is the human condition. And while your nephew must realize this, he must also mourn as if he is the only person this has ever happened to because not a single person on Earth has eperienced and felt it as he has.

I dislike giving advice .... especially when it has not been asked for ...... But I empathize with your nephew and his actual experience of losing his mother to suicide. It's primal. If your own mum ends her life inspite of your own ..... what does that mean for me? Am I not worthy? Am I not beautiful? Am I not loved in that primal sense?

Does your nephew know, both cognitively and emotionally, that you have his back? Does he have some sense of connection? Because we all just need to feel connected, or we otherwise seek out Jesus, which is also valid but not ultimately real. Or we seek a connection with something else .... like a flag which symbolizes a connection, a sense of belonging ... or maybe even a gang for some.

Keep us posted Siber D. Stay connected.


Ok, AF, this happened almost eight years ago. My wife and I were totally unprepared to take on the task of trying to counsel my nephew. All we did was tell him that we had no idea she was that bad, had no answers for him, but we loved him and he could come and live with us until he graduated high school and went to college. I'm not a warm and fuzzy person to begin with and I was feeling so much guilt feeling that I should have seen, done more for her, I don't think I was much comfort to him.

And, I was the executor of her will, by her choice. While Matt's grades weren't the best he was a star player on the Ben Davis HS basketball team....that's big time around here. He had numerous opportunities to go to a college with a basketball scholarship. Because of what happened he lost interest in basketball, started to hang out with er, um, some of his less desirable friends and started getting in trouble at school and a couple of run ins with the law. He decided that not only did he not want a scholarship to play basketball at college, he didn't want to attend college at all.

We were just unprepared to take this challenge on and begged and pleaded with him to seek counciling but to no avail. Now, not only did he not want to go to college, he wanted to move to Philly and become a writer of rap songs. Well, thats when things got ugly because as part of my sister's wishes, I was not to let him have the life insurance money, the money from the proceeds of the sale of the house, or the annuity from her pension fund until he went to college, graduated, or turned 22. We had some pretty big arguments about it. He finally relented and went to a local college but I knew that it wasn't going to work out and he dropped out after one semester.

He then, somehow, got an offer to play basketball for some small university out in New York City, and I said, well, yeah, if thats what you really want to do now go ahead and go out there and give it a try. He started out sharing an apt with an assistant coach because rent is so damn expensive out there. I kind of figured this wasn't going to work out because he still needed assistance to deal with his mom's death, and I thought New York would just eat him up alive. It did. He was back within two months.

He again tried to get the money from me and head out on his own but I just could not go against my sister's wishes and we had battle after battle. I told him I'd give him enough to get an apt, deposit, first months rent, and a little extra if he'd try to find a job to support himself because I was not going to just hand over well over a hundred thousand to him. So, he did that, got a low paying job, waited until he was 22 and then I gave him his mom's money, that had grown considerably from investments that I had made through Fidelity.

He then took that, bought a new car, not a fancy one, and a townhouse in Indy. Got religion, went overboard with it but at least he did not blow all his money as a tithing to a church! He's currently in Miami Beach just living in small one bedroom apt, without a job and doing what, I don't know. He still holds a grudge for me withholding the money from him. Oh, he still owns the townhome here and has it rented out.

So, no, we don't talk much and as I've said, I just cannot fathom the pain he went through with all of this but I was, and still am, clueless on what to do.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:54 am 
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SiberD wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
SiberD wrote:
But, getting back to suicide, I cannot fathom what my nephew, who found his Mom, has and is, going through.


I can't either. Must be very difficult, especially at his age and stage of development when it occurred. Since then, I think you mentioned that he has become a "Jesus-freak". Even folks with less fortunate experiences resort to the answers offered by religion and nation .... especially since both give a sense of security. The hard fact, and also the liberating fact, is that neither can offer a sense of security when there is no actual security in life. I mean, there is no security. Not in religion and not in the idea of nationhood. This is both difficult and liberating, isn't it? But for the experience your nephew is having .... to know that he is a human having an all-too common human experience of that sense of abondonment ...... which so many have.

We absoluteluy MUST go it alone inspite of culture and religion and politics, and yet we are all having similar experience.

Sometimes all one needs is a friend ..... a person to talk to without having to pay that person. Does your nephew know that he can call "just" to talk? Does he know that you "have his back?" Can he spill his beans without fear that the person listening will insist that he change in some way ..... even the jesus stuff? Does your nephew know that his emotional pain can be acknowledged and witnessed without anyone having to make it "better"? Don't make it better, .... just hear him out.

His mother ended her life inspite of his. There is no right or wrong, no judgement .... but this story is cause for one to feel basically 'unloved'. He probably feels that ... he probably feels 'unloved' at a very primal and basic level.

You are probably already doing what you can and I'm sure you are doing it wisely.

Sometimes listening without feeling the need to change or to make "better" is a challenge. From what I have learned about communication, men tend to want to offer solutions ..... because men tend to be solution oriented which is conditioned by culture. But in actually there are no solutions. Just listen and let him know that you are there. Let him be a jesus-freak for now. Invite him to tell you what is happening for him. There are no solutions to the inevitable pain of life. There is no actual religious or nationhood identity that will ultimately smooth the way for him or us, although cleaving to such identities do give temporary solace.

Your nephew probably feels abandoned. But of course who wouldn't? This is not an individual experience as much as it is the human experience. We are not separate. What one feels we all feel. Anyone who has lost their mother to suicide will feel abandoned. This is the human condition. And while your nephew must realize this, he must also mourn as if he is the only person this has ever happened to because not a single person on Earth has eperienced and felt it as he has.

I dislike giving advice .... especially when it has not been asked for ...... But I empathize with your nephew and his actual experience of losing his mother to suicide. It's primal. If your own mum ends her life inspite of your own ..... what does that mean for me? Am I not worthy? Am I not beautiful? Am I not loved in that primal sense?

Does your nephew know, both cognitively and emotionally, that you have his back? Does he have some sense of connection? Because we all just need to feel connected, or we otherwise seek out Jesus, which is also valid but not ultimately real. Or we seek a connection with something else .... like a flag which symbolizes a connection, a sense of belonging ... or maybe even a gang for some.

Keep us posted Siber D. Stay connected.


Ok, AF, this happened almost eight years ago. My wife and I were totally unprepared to take on the task of trying to counsel my nephew. All we did was tell him that we had no idea she was that bad, had no answers for him, but we loved him and he could come and live with us until he graduated high school and went to college. I'm not a warm and fuzzy person to begin with and I was feeling so much guilt feeling that I should have seen, done more for her, I don't think I was much comfort to him.

And, I was the executor of her will, by her choice. While Matt's grades weren't the best he was a star player on the Ben Davis HS basketball team....that's big time around here. He had numerous opportunities to go to a college with a basketball scholarship. Because of what happened he lost interest in basketball, started to hang out with er, um, some of his less desirable friends and started getting in trouble at school and a couple of run ins with the law. He decided that not only did he not want a scholarship to play basketball at college, he didn't want to attend college at all.

We were just unprepared to take this challenge on and begged and pleaded with him to seek counciling but to no avail. Now, not only did he not want to go to college, he wanted to move to Philly and become a writer of rap songs. Well, thats when things got ugly because as part of my sister's wishes, I was not to let him have the life insurance money, the money from the proceeds of the sale of the house, or the annuity from her pension fund until he went to college, graduated, or turned 22. We had some pretty big arguments about it. He finally relented and went to a local college but I knew that it wasn't going to work out and he dropped out after one semester.

He then, somehow, got an offer to play basketball for some small university out in New York City, and I said, well, yeah, if thats what you really want to do now go ahead and go out there and give it a try. He started out sharing an apt with an assistant coach because rent is so damn expensive out there. I kind of figured this wasn't going to work out because he still needed assistance to deal with his mom's death, and I thought New York would just eat him up alive. It did. He was back within two months.

He again tried to get the money from me and head out on his own but I just could not go against my sister's wishes and we had battle after battle. I told him I'd give him enough to get an apt, deposit, first months rent, and a little extra if he'd try to find a job to support himself because I was not going to just hand over well over a hundred thousand to him. So, he did that, got a low paying job, waited until he was 22 and then I gave him his mom's money, that had grown considerably from investments that I had made through Fidelity.

He then took that, bought a new car, not a fancy one, and a townhouse in Indy. Got religion, went overboard with it but at least he did not blow all his money as a tithing to a church! He's currently in Miami Beach just living in small one bedroom apt, without a job and doing what, I don't know. He still holds a grudge for me withholding the money from him. Oh, he still owns the townhome here and has it rented out.

So, no, we don't talk much and as I've said, I just cannot fathom the pain he went through with all of this but I was, and still am, clueless on what to do.


Sorry for being so slow in response Siber. I've been thinking about your nephew and the subject of suicide for a bit ..... including a few i've known who have also "committed" the deed as your sister did. It is a strange deed for those of us who are still living and can therefore cast a sort of judgement on the "deed". But for those who have actually ended their lives ..... it is a deed done! It is an absolute ending and for them, it is something that cannot ever be judged because the various opinions about it can never be heard by those "committers".

The survival instinct is a very strong instinct in all beings ..... one can even see it in insects. It is a kind of intelligence; that desire to stay alive even in horrible circumstances. But there are circumstances when and where the act of ending one's life is simply logical and I deplore the religious/moral argument that suicide is somehow wrong .... weak .... immoral .... etc.

I would, of course, dissuade anyone from arguing with life itself. And yet, some who choose suicide are actually making a very courageous choice. I would bet that your sister thought long and hard about her options .... and sometimes, inspite of the innate desire we have to live, it is best that one euthanize oneself.

For children of parents who end their lives ....... there are questions like, "Is there something I did?" Or "Was I not reason enough for you, Mother, to stay alive?"

The question of "unworth" would arise for most people. So it is really not surprising that your nephew would become religious .... and maybe that's okay for now. You and your wife have given him ample support and guidance in some of his most critical years. He is now an adult and must find his way. You have done what you could and the time has shifted. This particular situation does not befall most of us .... but it has befallen you .... and so it is for you.

Our particular challenges shows up in many different forms, and this is one way it has shown up for you. i really hope that you can stay connected with him .... not as an advisor or a source of income .... but as a presence and/or a point of connection because it really is all about relationship.

Breakdowns in communication and relationship between family members and neighbours and friends happens all too often .... and then we wonder why nations cannot get along ..... and we don't understand why we are going to war. We must surrender ourselves to each other.

Thank you Siber.


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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:04 pm 
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mothy wrote:
Suicide cannot be judged. Simple isn't it.

I was never satisfied with satisfaction. A satisfied customer never wants more (greed is a further issue).

When a philosopher becomes satisfied he ceases to be one.

Mothy

Satisfy the society and then exert total control over them.

Mothy

And more important the great Ghandi

Earth provides every mans need but not every mans greed

And full circle alot of suicides are down to poverty.
The Ecocidal Syndrome

Psychotic

in the last years
of life on Earth,
humans clung tight
to multiple delusions,
grimly unaware
of their own
commercially driven
predator instinct
blindly pushing
with ecocidal greed
their self-extinction,
all but the few
who bravely insisted
they expose reality,
though coldly ignored
or slyly compared
to crazy extremists
by the corporate media,
when it was over
and all lay dead,
there were no people
alive to remember
anyone ever existed.
John Talbot Ross

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“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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