EnviroLink Forum

Community • Ecology • Connection
It is currently Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:11 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:19 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20474
Location: Southeastern US
Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Again math is our friend if one wants to know actual statistics. The RT reports seem to be less accurate and more sensational from what I have seen.

http://ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezaucr/asp/ucr_display.asp

Showing from 2001 - 2008 US Juvenile Violent Crimes per year on average

~1250 juvenile arrests for murder/ non-negligent manslaughter

~3500 juvenile arrests for violent rape

~29,000 juvenile arrests for robbery

~ 60,000 juvenile arrests for aggravated assault

Thus, the 2500 figure quoted for those incarcerated after conviction does not seem to be that out of line.

A good age breakdown of age at arrest would help their case IF the majority of those convicted are not in the upper ranges of what we call a juvenile.


Quote:
if one wants to know actual statistics.


I'm not interested in the "actual" statistics because a focus on them misses the point entirely.



What was the point other than supposedly there are too many juvenile convicts in the US? If you do not know how many there are how do you know if there are too many? If you do not know the particulars of the cases, how do you know anything?

Is there a real difference in convicting a person for murder who has lived for 17 years 11 months and 27 days as compared to someone who has lived for 18 years and 1 day?



animal-friendly wrote:
So are you interested in how many there are, or the particulars of the cases of which there are?


Both. That would be the only way to determine whether there really was a problem with the system.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:48 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20474
Location: Southeastern US
Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
You Wayne say, "First we would need to know the rate by which the US imprisons "children" in order to compare would we not? The opposition is either one is too many or there is some other rate which is too many. Until the goal posts are settled in the discussion is only one of assumption of assumptions."

Forget it. I don't really care about how many children are imprisoned in Saudi Arabia or elsewhere around the globe. Why compare? We are talking about the US. Are the goal posts not obvious? One child is too many. Is there one child in the US incarcerated? Are there more than one? This is the math.


If your position is one child is too many there is no reason to discuss it with you as you have no rational base from which to begin. One crime is too many, yet we have them and we have to determine ways to protect society from the people who have committed the worst crimes.

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/20 ... istory.php

Nov. 4, 1992 -- Thomas ''T.J.'' White, 15, and Marcus Fernandez, 16, killed state Trooper Lyle Wohlers. White is sentenced to consecutive 16-year terms for accessory to murder. Fernandez is sentenced to life without parole.


animal-friendly wrote:
A 16 year old is sentenced to life without parole? Gulag ....


Maybe and maybe not. Anyone willing to kill an armed officer of the law has to be considered a threat to society unless some extraordinary circumstances exist.

Quote:
Is this crime a problem for you? Is a sentence of 2-3 years in a low security juvenille facility a good way to make sure these two do not kill an unarmed (next time) person?


Quote:
This crime is a problem for everyone. At the age of 16 .... Would there be another murder?


It would indicate a high probability given the age and if there were such a light punishment.

Quote:
How did this kid get here in the first place? How much is spent keeping him there vs. how much would be spent keeping hm out?


You cannot "keep him out" only he can do that. You can try but that is all. If cost is such an issue the death penalty is a better option in this case.

Quote:
Oct. 31, 1993 -- Paul English, 14, shot and killed Carl Banks Jr., 18, in Park Hill, as he was shepherding a group of trick-or-treaters. He was sentenced to 48 years in prison.

A 4 year sentence for killing someone in front of a group of kids is sufficient?


Quote:
A 48 year sentence for a 14 year old? ... is rather insufficient. Seriously?


No. The 4 year sentance until he turned 18 is insufficient.

Quote:
Is it either/or? If so, why?


Yes, a juvenille court cannot impose any punishment passed the age of 18, thus the sentence limit. If you do not know what is involved how do you know it is wrong?

Quote:
How did this kid get there in the first place?


He killed someone.

Quote:
How much would it cost to create social nets vs. the cost of 48 years of incarceration?


Much, much, much more expensive.

Quote:
And that last query is only an economical one .... not as important as the cruel and unusual punishment of a child.


More cruel and unusual than for the families of the victims who have a loved one killed by a child who then is lightly punished?

Quote:
Feb. 25, 1995 -- Raymond James Gone, 16, shot and killed Denver police officer Shawn Leinen. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

Killing an armed officer would not need more than a 2 year sentence to protect unarmed people the next time?


Quote:
What .... second murder? Who says?


Probabilities. Killing an armed officer indicates a clear danger to future victims of other crimes. Dead witnesses and all.

Quote:
Especially at the age of 16 ... life without parole?


That is what the jury decided after hearing the case and evidence by both sides. You just make one assumption.

Quote:
Sept. 28, 1996 -- Jennifer Tombs, 16, shot and killed her baby sitter Latanya Lavallais, 23. She was sentenced to life in prison.

A killing by a 16 year old would draw a 2 year sentence in juvenille court. Is that sufficient for the crime?


Quote:
It may well be for one so young to begin with.


I am sure the family of the sitter would agree .... as would the people in the neighborhood when she got out.


Quote:
Life imprisonement? Did she have the possibility of parole?


There is generally a possibility of parole.

Quote:
If so, she may just start life anew. And she may have had a chance of contrtibuting .... and we may well have been the beneficiaries.


or not. The odds are not good for your position.

Quote:
Quote:
Nov. 15, 1996 -- Antonio Scott Farrell, 17, and Kevin Blankenship, 16, kidnapped Barbara Castor, 76, from a Brighton parking lot, tied her up and left her near abandoned dam near Strasburg. She died of exposure. They were sentenced to life sentences plus 56 years.

Killing an old woman by exposure would not need more than a 1-2 year sentence especially if the trial could not be finished before the juvenille court lost jurisdiction.


Vindicative! We all need to be vindicated. We want collective vengeance afterall.


We also want to protect the next little old lady they decide to kidnap.

Quote:
Quote:
Sept. 7, 1998 -- Alexander Pogosyan, 17, and friend Michael Martinez, 18, killed four teenagers and a mother in a Labor Day rampage. Martinez was later slain. Pogosyan was sentenced to five consecutive life terms without parole.

Five deaths and less than a year in jail is justice, right?


Wrong .... as giving life sentences to teen-agers, without posibility of parole, is also wrong.


Then there is no right solution in your mind. The rest of us are left to use the solutions we have.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:01 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:42 am
Posts: 1329
Quote:
You Wayne say, "First we would need to know the rate by which the US imprisons "children" in order to compare would we not? The opposition is either one is too many or there is some other rate which is too many. Until the goal posts are settled in the discussion is only one of assumption of assumptions."


Forget it. I don't really care about how many children are imprisoned in Saudi Arabia or elsewhere around the globe. Why compare? We are talking about the US. Are the goal posts not obvious? One child is too many. Is there one child in the US incarcerated? Are there more than one? This is the math.

Quote:
If your position is one child is too many there is no reason to discuss it with you as you have no rational base from which to begin. One crime is too many, yet we have them and we have to determine ways to protect society from the people who have committed the worst crimes.


http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/20 ... istory.php

Nov. 4, 1992 -- Thomas ''T.J.'' White, 15, and Marcus Fernandez, 16, killed state Trooper Lyle Wohlers. White is sentenced to consecutive 16-year terms for accessory to murder. Fernandez is sentenced to life without parole.
[/quote]

animal-friendly wrote:
A 16 year old is sentenced to life without parole? Gulag ....


Quote:
Maybe and maybe not. Anyone willing to kill an armed officer of the law has to be considered a threat to society unless some extraordinary circumstances exist.


No Wayne. Killing an "armed" (?) officer .... Why do you highlight armed? It's no different than killing an unarmed person. Already, society has been a threat to these children. As a child, considerations must be made.

Quote:
Is this crime a problem for you? Is a sentence of 2-3 years in a low security juvenille facility a good way to make sure these two do not kill an unarmed (next time) person?


This crime is a problem for everyone. At the age of 16 .... Would there be another murder?
Why make these assumptions?

Quote:
It would indicate a high probability given the age and if there were such a light punishment.


Disagree.

How did this kid get here in the first place? How much is spent keeping him there vs. how much would be spent keeping hm out?

Quote:
You cannot "keep him out" only he can do that. You can try but that is all. If cost is such an issue the death penalty is a better option in this case.


Only he can do that? No. You missed. How did the kid get there in the first place?

Quote:
Oct. 31, 1993 -- Paul English, 14, shot and killed Carl Banks Jr., 18, in Park Hill, as he was shepherding a group of trick-or-treaters. He was sentenced to 48 years in prison.

A 4 year sentence for killing someone in front of a group of kids is sufficient?


A 48 year sentence for a 14 year old? ... is rather insufficient. Seriously?

Quote:
No. The 4 year sentance until he turned 18 is insufficient.


No. A 48 year sentence is cruel and unusual for someone sentenced at the age of 14.

Is it either/or? If so, why?

Quote:
Yes, a juvenille court cannot impose any punishment passed the age of 18, thus the sentence limit. If you do not know what is involved how do you know it is wrong?


I know because a 14 year old sentenced to 48 years of imprisonment is wrong. Kind of simple really, unless you want to employ graphs and statistics and other kinds of mathematical manipulations and analysis to say that it isn't.

How did this kid get there in the first place?

Quote:
He killed someone.


A 14 year old killed someone and is sentenced to 48 years in prison? How does a 14 year old get into this situation in the first place? I'll beat the horse if you like .....

How much would it cost to create social nets vs. the cost of 48 years of incarceration?

Quote:
Much, much, much more expensive.


In what terms?

And that last query is only an economical one .... not as important as the cruel and unusual punishment of a child.

Quote:
More cruel and unusual than for the families of the victims who have a loved one killed by a child who then is lightly punished?


So you agree that the justice is cruel and unusual? As for the bereaved families, about as much. So is that the solution? Is the solution to mete out vengeance? Punishment for dysfunction? I say YES for punishment and NO for throwing away the keys on a 14 year olds. We get vengeance fuddled with keeping people safe from re-offenders.

Quote:
Feb. 25, 1995 -- Raymond James Gone, 16, shot and killed Denver police officer Shawn Leinen. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

Killing an armed officer would not need more than a 2 year sentence to protect unarmed people the next time?


What .... second murder? Who says?

Quote:
Probabilities. Killing an armed officer indicates a clear danger to future victims of other crimes. Dead witnesses and all.


Again the "armed" officer ..... as if being armed elevates his status as a human being and as if a teenager would actually take this into consideration. You are throwing around the weight of the law as the courts do, regardless of brain maturation, circumstances, etc. And as for probabilities, we could see those same probabilities before the first crime happened anyway.

Especially at the age of 16 ... life without parole?

Quote:
That is what the jury decided after hearing the case and evidence by both sides. You just make one assumption.


Quote:
Sept. 28, 1996 -- Jennifer Tombs, 16, shot and killed her baby sitter Latanya Lavallais, 23. She was sentenced to life in prison.

A killing by a 16 year old would draw a 2 year sentence in juvenille court. Is that sufficient for the crime?


It may well be for one so young to begin with.
A jury who thinks like you .... ie: we must get vengeance against this child, would have, of course, come to that same conclusion. It is a result of a certain cultural conditioning that throws away the keys. You are subject to that conditioning.

Quote:
I am sure the family of the sitter would agree .... as would the people in the neighborhood when she got out.


Uh-huh. There it is again, that need for retribution and punishment and vengeance. It's a natural feeling but not so logical when considered further. I would hope, and maybe assume, that the family and neighborhood would wonder what the hell was going on in the life of the 16 year old. Juvenille court may not be sufficient, but life in the adult system without parole? C'mon Wayne ..... there is a reason why the US prison system is scrutinized and critisized. Why does it bother you? What are you defending precisely?


Life imprisonement? Did she have the possibility of parole?

Quote:
There is generally a possibility of parole.


And those teens who have been served life sentences without the possibility of parole?
If so, she may just start life anew. And she may have had a chance of contrtibuting .... and we may well have been the beneficiaries.

or not. The odds are not good for your position.

What do you base this on? How can you make such a statement? Someone makes a dire mistake as a teenager and willl most likely, according to you, make another one so we should just lock them up for their entire life, without possibility of parole? Locked up at 16 and released at 60?

Quote:
Quote:
Nov. 15, 1996 -- Antonio Scott Farrell, 17, and Kevin Blankenship, 16, kidnapped Barbara Castor, 76, from a Brighton parking lot, tied her up and left her near abandoned dam near Strasburg. She died of exposure. They were sentenced to life sentences plus 56 years.

Killing an old woman by exposure would not need more than a 1-2 year sentence especially if the trial could not be finished before the juvenille court lost jurisdiction.


Vindicative! We all need to be vindicated. We want collective vengeance afterall.


We also want to protect the next little old lady they decide to kidnap.

No Wayne. You are coming from a very vindicative and punitive place. You are concerned about the safety of the old lady .... or so you say. But if you were authentically concerned ..... you would be just as concerned about 14 year old being sentenced to 48 years of prison. Your voice does not ring true here. You are simply defending your position.


Quote:
Sept. 7, 1998 -- Alexander Pogosyan, 17, and friend Michael Martinez, 18, killed four teenagers and a mother in a Labor Day rampage. Martinez was later slain. Pogosyan was sentenced to five consecutive life terms without parole.

Five deaths and less than a year in jail is justice, right?


Wrong .... as giving life sentences to teen-agers, without posibility of parole, is also wrong.

Quote:
Then there is no right solution in your mind. The rest of us are left to use the solutions we have.
[/quote]

What do you mean by that? I didn't say that there is no right solution in my mind. You are trying to give me words that are simply not mine.
The rest of us are left with very grave considerations Including the ever growing prison poulations in the US.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:11 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20474
Location: Southeastern US
animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Sept. 28, 1996 -- Jennifer Tombs, 16, shot and killed her baby sitter Latanya Lavallais, 23. She was sentenced to life in prison.

A killing by a 16 year old would draw a 2 year sentence in juvenille court. Is that sufficient for the crime?


It may well be for one so young to begin with. Life imprisonement? Did she have the possibility of parole? If so, she may just start life anew. And she may have had a chance of contrtibuting .... and we may well have been the beneficiaries.


Minimal time in jail for shooting a family friend multiple times in the back of the head, cleaning up, and attempting to hide evidence to go to a party seems reasonable to someone I am sure.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/06/us/gi ... itter.html

A 16-year-old girl on Friday was convicted of killing the family friend who had agreed to watch her while her mother, a minister, was at a weekend church retreat.

The girl, Jennifer Tombs, was sentenced to life in prison without parole after she was found guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death of Latanya Lavallais. Prosecutors had portrayed the girl as so intent on going out with her friends last Sept. 27 that she had shot Ms. Lavallais five times in the back of the head.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:22 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20474
Location: Southeastern US
Some other examples I found:

Joseph Hunter, 17, MURDERED Dorothy Woodham, 86, clubbed with a fireplace shovel, strangled, and stabbed 16 times.

An old woman only strangled, beaten, and stabbed 16 times ..... not even a month per stab if convicted in juvenille court.

Frank Vigil, 16, MURDERED Brandy Duvall, 14, gang raped and stabbed 28 times, bled to death.

A young girl only gang raped and stabbed 28 times ..... again, not even a month per stab if convicted in juvenille court. Nothing cruel or unusual about being gang raped first either.

Marcus Clouatre, 17, MURDERED Douglas Sparr, 34, son of a federal court judge, bound and gagged, blindfolded, stabbed, and hit on the head, strangled with cords and had bleach poured down his throat.

Nothing cruel or unusual happened to Mr. Sparr ... really.

Terrance Wilder, 17, MURDERED Joel England, 24 and Roderaick Marable, 38, beaten to death.

Two beaten to death. That would be less than six months per murder at most if conviceted as a juvenille.

Merle Mangum, 17, MURDERED Janet Davis, 42, and daughter Jennifer, 11, beaten to death.

Two more beaten to death, but one is only a kid so it should not count as much. Still less than six months each murder if tried in juvenille court.

Alexander Pogosyan, 17, MURDERED Edgardo Moralles, Jr., 18, Zach Obert, 18, Penny Bowman-Meida, 37, Greg Media 18, Marissa Avalos, 16, shot to death on the Labor Day holiday.

Five murders, so why stop at one if the sentence would be the same either way? Less than a year for one murder or less than two months each for six?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:14 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20474
Location: Southeastern US
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/20 ... istory.php

Nov. 4, 1992 -- Thomas ''T.J.'' White, 15, and Marcus Fernandez, 16, killed state Trooper Lyle Wohlers. White is sentenced to consecutive 16-year terms for accessory to murder. Fernandez is sentenced to life without parole.
[/quote]

animal-friendly wrote:
A 16 year old is sentenced to life without parole? Gulag ....


Quote:
Maybe and maybe not. Anyone willing to kill an armed officer of the law has to be considered a threat to society unless some extraordinary circumstances exist.


animal-friendly wrote:
No Wayne. Killing an "armed" (?) officer .... Why do you highlight armed? It's no different than killing an unarmed person.


It is very much different to kill an armed person. An armed person has the ability to defend themsleves an unarmed person does not. This, there is more risk to attacking an armed person and shows a greater intent to harm.

Quote:
Already, society has been a threat to these children. As a child, considerations must be made.


Society has been a threat to them? They were threatened in what manner? When do the "considerations for a child" stop?

Quote:
Quote:
Is this crime a problem for you? Is a sentence of 2-3 years in a low security juvenille facility a good way to make sure these two do not kill an unarmed (next time) person?


This crime is a problem for everyone. At the age of 16 .... Would there be another murder?
Why make these assumptions?


There are probabilities from which we can make educated guesses at the future, as opposed to making assumptions as you seem to know so well. Young offenders tend to repeat more often partly due to the punishment being more lax. The repeat offense for murder/manslaughter after release from prison is generally <1%, but as you say one is too many. :mrgreen:

Quote:
It would indicate a high probability given the age and if there were such a light punishment.


Quote:
Disagree.

How did this kid get here in the first place? How much is spent keeping him there vs. how much would be spent keeping hm out?

Quote:
You cannot "keep him out" only he can do that. You can try but that is all. If cost is such an issue the death penalty is a better option in this case.


Only he can do that? No. You missed. How did the kid get there in the first place?


I do not know any more than you do, but I do know only he can prevent himself from killing unless we imprison or execute him.

Quote:
Quote:
Oct. 31, 1993 -- Paul English, 14, shot and killed Carl Banks Jr., 18, in Park Hill, as he was shepherding a group of trick-or-treaters. He was sentenced to 48 years in prison.

A 4 year sentence for killing someone in front of a group of kids is sufficient?


A 48 year sentence for a 14 year old? ... is rather insufficient. Seriously?

Quote:
No. The 4 year sentance until he turned 18 is insufficient.


No. A 48 year sentence is cruel and unusual for someone sentenced at the age of 14.



Not for killing someone in front of a bunch of children.


Quote:
Is it either/or? If so, why?

Quote:
Yes, a juvenille court cannot impose any punishment passed the age of 18, thus the sentence limit. If you do not know what is involved how do you know it is wrong?


I know because a 14 year old sentenced to 48 years of imprisonment is wrong.


Considering the different formula for which parole is calculated it is unlikely that would be the case, but if it were what would a "right" sentence be for a 14 year old with no other information on the situation?

Quote:
Kind of simple really, unless you want to employ graphs and statistics and other kinds of mathematical manipulations and analysis to say that it isn't.


Make it simple for us and explain what would be "right" and why.

Quote:
How did this kid get there in the first place?

Quote:
He killed someone.


A 14 year old killed someone and is sentenced to 48 years in prison? How does a 14 year old get into this situation in the first place? I'll beat the horse if you like .....


You tell me. You say it is wrong with no evidence at all other than your belief. Your belief seems to be more important than anyone else's.

Quote:
How much would it cost to create social nets vs. the cost of 48 years of incarceration?

Quote:
Much, much, much more expensive.


In what terms?


Dollars, which would be the normal value of economical cost in that context.

Quote:
And that last query is only an economical one .... not as important as the cruel and unusual punishment of a child.


Quote:
Quote:
More cruel and unusual than for the families of the victims who have a loved one killed by a child who then is lightly punished?


So you agree that the justice is cruel and unusual?


No, just that your definition is a bit skewed.

Quote:
As for the bereaved families, about as much. So is that the solution? Is the solution to mete out vengeance? Punishment for dysfunction? I say YES for punishment and NO for throwing away the keys on a 14 year olds. We get vengeance fuddled with keeping people safe from re-offenders.


Show us the evidence the safety should not be compromised with lighter sentences. Wait, you cannot because that would requires some statistics which you seem to distrust.

Quote:
Quote:
Feb. 25, 1995 -- Raymond James Gone, 16, shot and killed Denver police officer Shawn Leinen. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

Killing an armed officer would not need more than a 2 year sentence to protect unarmed people the next time?


What .... second murder? Who says?


If one is imprisoned for two years for one murder there is little to cause anyone to believe there will not be another.

Quote:
Quote:
Probabilities. Killing an armed officer indicates a clear danger to future victims of other crimes. Dead witnesses and all.


Again the "armed" officer ..... as if being armed elevates his status as a human being and as if a teenager would actually take this into consideration.


Yes, it does as an officer has a better chance of shooting back and killing or injuring the attacker and the investigation of a officer being killed is more intensive as a result so the chance of being caught is greater.

Quote:
You are throwing around the weight of the law as the courts do, regardless of brain maturation, circumstances, etc. And as for probabilities, we could see those same probabilities before the first crime happened anyway.


What exactly ARE the circumstances being ignored? How mature was the perpetrator in this case compared to others of the same age who have not killed anyone?


Quote:
Quote:
That is what the jury decided after hearing the case and evidence by both sides. You just make one assumption.


Quote:
Sept. 28, 1996 -- Jennifer Tombs, 16, shot and killed her baby sitter Latanya Lavallais, 23. She was sentenced to life in prison.

A killing by a 16 year old would draw a 2 year sentence in juvenille court. Is that sufficient for the crime?


It may well be for one so young to begin with.
A jury who thinks like you .... ie: we must get vengeance against this child, would have, of course, come to that same conclusion.


How did this jury think? Who was on the jury?

Quote:
It is a result of a certain cultural conditioning that throws away the keys. You are subject to that conditioning.


Or conditioned to ignore crimes as you seem to wish to do.

Quote:
Quote:
I am sure the family of the sitter would agree .... as would the people in the neighborhood when she got out.


Uh-huh. There it is again, that need for retribution and punishment and vengeance.


You assume the people in the neighborhood would not fear their loved ones might also be killed in this case. Prevention is clearly ignored in your appraoch.

Quote:
It's a natural feeling but not so logical when considered further. I would hope, and maybe assume, that the family and neighborhood would wonder what the hell was going on in the life of the 16 year old.


Yes, the daughter of a minister probably had a hard life that required her to kill the daughter of a church member and family friend.

Quote:
Juvenille court may not be sufficient, but life in the adult system without parole? C'mon Wayne ..... there is a reason why the US prison system is scrutinized and critisized. Why does it bother you? What are you defending precisely?


Misrepresentations bother me. This is just another case.


Quote:
Life imprisonement? Did she have the possibility of parole?

Quote:
There is generally a possibility of parole.


And those teens who have been served life sentences without the possibility of parole?


The parole opportunity is generally at a much later date, but it is on a state by state and even time period by time period determination.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If so, she may just start life anew. And she may have had a chance of contrtibuting .... and we may well have been the beneficiaries.


or not. The odds are not good for your position.


What do you base this on?


Shooting someone in the back of the head multiple times, cleaning up the mess, and hiding evidence in order to go to a party and hopefully get away with murder.

Quote:
How can you make such a statement?


By looking farther into the case than you seem to have done.

Quote:
Someone makes a dire mistake as a teenager and willl most likely, according to you, make another one so we should just lock them up for their entire life, without possibility of parole? Locked up at 16 and released at 60?


That or just stone them to death ..... that is the Biblical appraoch is it not? :twisted:

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Nov. 15, 1996 -- Antonio Scott Farrell, 17, and Kevin Blankenship, 16, kidnapped Barbara Castor, 76, from a Brighton parking lot, tied her up and left her near abandoned dam near Strasburg. She died of exposure. They were sentenced to life sentences plus 56 years.

Killing an old woman by exposure would not need more than a 1-2 year sentence especially if the trial could not be finished before the juvenille court lost jurisdiction.


Vindicative! We all need to be vindicated. We want collective vengeance afterall.


We also want to protect the next little old lady they decide to kidnap.


Quote:
No Wayne. You are coming from a very vindicative and punitive place. You are concerned about the safety of the old lady .... or so you say. But if you were authentically concerned ..... you would be just as concerned about 14 year old being sentenced to 48 years of prison. Your voice does not ring true here. You are simply defending your position.


How would a shorter period of time ensure the safety of the old ladies exactly? I do not see your point. The only thing a shorter period would affect is the person who killed the first old lady.


Quote:
Quote:
Sept. 7, 1998 -- Alexander Pogosyan, 17, and friend Michael Martinez, 18, killed four teenagers and a mother in a Labor Day rampage. Martinez was later slain. Pogosyan was sentenced to five consecutive life terms without parole.

Five deaths and less than a year in jail is justice, right?


Wrong .... as giving life sentences to teen-agers, without posibility of parole, is also wrong.

Quote:
Then there is no right solution in your mind. The rest of us are left to use the solutions we have.


What do you mean by that?


Just what I said, there is no right solution being presented by you.

Quote:
I didn't say that there is no right solution in my mind.


Yet, your actions still leave no right solution presented.

Quote:
You are trying to give me words that are simply not mine.


No, I give words to your actions.

Quote:
The rest of us are left with very grave considerations Including the ever growing prison poulations in the US.


And in no other countries are there growing prison populations. :-

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:30 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20474
Location: Southeastern US
It seems the youngest person convicted of muder and sentenced to life without parole in the US did not spend that much time in prison for that conviction. He did get convicted for ohter crimes shortly after getting out though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Tate

Lionel Alexander Tate (born January 30, 1987)[1] is the youngest American citizen ever sentenced to life imprisonment without possibility of parole. In January 2001, when Tate was 14, he was convicted of first-degree murder for the 1999 battering death of 6-year-old Tiffany Eunick in Broward County, Florida.

<snip>

After the conviction, the prosecution openly joined Tate's plea for leniency in sentencing, and even offered to help in his appeal. The trial judge criticized the prosecution for compromising the integrity of the adversarial system, and said that if the prosecution felt that life imprisonment was not warranted, they should not have charged him with murder in the first place.

In January 2004, a state appeals court overturned his conviction on the basis that his mental competency had not been evaluated before trial. This opened the way for Tate to accept the same plea deal he originally turned down, and he was released on one year's house arrest and 10 years' probation.

<snip>

On May 23, 2005, Tate was charged with armed burglary with battery, armed robbery and violation of probation, the Broward County Sheriff's Office said.

Tate threatened Domino's Pizza deliveryman Walter Ernest Gallardo with a handgun outside a friend's apartment after phoning in an order. Gallardo dropped the four pizzas and fled the scene. Tate then re-entered the apartment, assaulting the occupant who did not want Tate inside.

Gallardo called 9-1-1 upon reaching the Domino's store and returned to identify Tate, the sheriff's office said in a statement. No gun was recovered.

On March 1, 2006, Tate accepted a plea bargain and was to be sentenced to 10–30 years imprisonment in a sentencing hearing in April 2006. Tate admitted that he had violated probation by possessing a gun during the May 23 robbery that netted four pizzas worth $33.60, but he has refused to answer questions about where he got and later disposed of the gun. He was allowed to withdraw his guilty plea for robbery, but was finally sentenced to 30 years in prison on May 18, 2006 for violating probation. On October 24, 2007, Florida's 4th District Court of Appeal upheld that sentence.[11]

On February 19, 2008, Tate pleaded no contest to the pizza robbery and was sentenced to 10 years in state prison. The sentence will run concurrently with his 30 year sentence for violating his probation.[12]

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:05 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:27 am
Posts: 5776
Location: USA
animal-friendly wrote:
The rest of us are left with very grave considerations Including the ever growing prison poulations in the US.


Given how we stand in terms of education compared to the rest of the world, it shouldn't come as a shock.

_________________
TANG SOO!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:06 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20474
Location: Southeastern US
A recent case that went against the claim:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?secti ... id=8667627

A 14-year-old Pennsylvania boy accused of killing his father's pregnant fiancée and her unborn child will be sent to an undisclosed juvenile facility where he could remain in state custody until his 21st birthday.

Jordan Brown, who was 11 at the time of the slayings, was ordered by a Lawrence County judge on Friday to be transferred to a treatment center. The teenager is to be evaluated every six months to determine if he should be released.

The judge last month found Brown delinquent, the juvenile court equivalent of a guilty verdict, in the February 2009 deaths of 26-year-old Kenzie Houk and her unborn son.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:10 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:42 am
Posts: 1329
Fosgate wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The rest of us are left with very grave considerations Including the ever growing prison poulations in the US.


Given how we stand in terms of education compared to the rest of the world, it shouldn't come as a shock.


Huh?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:55 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20474
Location: Southeastern US
animal-friendly wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The rest of us are left with very grave considerations Including the ever growing prison poulations in the US.


Given how we stand in terms of education compared to the rest of the world, it shouldn't come as a shock.


Huh?


Poor education can lead to increased criminal activity and thus punishment for that activity.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group