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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:40 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
I believe that dinner tonight will as excellent as usual.
I believe that the pretty plants we re-potted today will do just fine.

Image

No scientific evidence to support either. Just experience of things that have been replicated in the past.
Either could turn out to be wrong.
I don't think that's faith.


Alright, I just wanted to establish that you do indeed believe things based in none other than personal experience. This is perfectly reasonable and the criteria for what you do and don't is, of course, up to the one beleiving.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:

Alright, I just wanted to establish that you do indeed believe things based in none other than personal experience. This is perfectly reasonable and the criteria for what you do and don't is, of course, up to the one beleiving.


It's evidence that gets replicated and can be, and sometimes is, documented.
Here's are pictures of a quite nice food served up by the missus:

Image

Image

I have good reason to believe, based on such evidence, that the very good food that gets routinely presented might continue.

To my knowledge, there is no such comparable evidence or images of deities that can be proven to exist.

Thousands a day starve to death. If an omnipotent god could cook like my missus and, if omnipotent would be able to, those thousands would not starve to death.
But they do.

The only logical conclusion is that no such god exists.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:06 pm 
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I believe I see Christ at the Resurrection and Ascent into Heaven in the top picture. :shock: Save the food and sell it to some fool on ebay for thousands!!! 8) :mrgreen:
PS: and worship your wife!!

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:02 am 
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I fully understand how the pistol works.

If you don't like the idea that the force of stopping the bulet in the barrel could have pushed the barrel forward a tiny bit making the firing pin be slightly too far back from the round to activate it when the trigger was pulled next time, how about the idea that the slide had a more than the usual kick pushing it back as the brass cartridge was ejected by most of the energy of the charge because the explosion was confined by the bullet being jammed in a barrel clogged by residue?

Don't use the dangerous thing again!


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:19 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
I believe I see Christ at the Resurrection and Ascent into Heaven in the top picture. :shock: Save the food and sell it to some fool on ebay for thousands!!! 8) :mrgreen:
PS: and worship your wife!!


Yes to all the above!
:)


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:41 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:

Alright, I just wanted to establish that you do indeed believe things based in none other than personal experience. This is perfectly reasonable and the criteria for what you do and don't is, of course, up to the one beleiving.


It's evidence that gets replicated and can be, and sometimes is, documented.
Here's are pictures of a quite nice food served up by the missus:

Image

Image

I have good reason to believe, based on such evidence, that the very good food that gets routinely presented might continue.

To my knowledge, there is no such comparable evidence or images of deities that can be proven to exist.


Dinner's existence isn't in question. You claimed that it would be excellent. There is no evidence of this other than your word.

Quote:
Thousands a day starve to death. If an omnipotent god could cook like my missus and, if omnipotent would be able to, those thousands would not starve to death.
But they do.

The only logical conclusion is that no such god exists.


So you say. What reason have we to believe you or that your assumptions are correct?

There is currently enough food in the world to feed every living human. Now, who's fault is it someone isn't eating?

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:01 am 
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Fosgate wrote:

Dinner's existence isn't in question. You claimed that it would be excellent. There is no evidence of this other than your word.

Since I ate it and enjoyed it, that's all the evidence I needed.


Quote:
Thousands a day starve to death. If an omnipotent god could cook like my missus and, if omnipotent would be able to, those thousands would not starve to death.
But they do.

The only logical conclusion is that no such god exists.


Fosgate wrote:
So you say. What reason have we to believe you or that your assumptions are correct?

Thousands of people a DAY die of starvation. That isn't an assumption.
http://www.bread.org/hunger/global/


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:11 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
Since I ate it and enjoyed it, that's all the evidence I needed.


Okay. Next time someone tells me that they prayed and that the prayer was answered, I'll take their word for it. 8)

Quote:
Thousands of people a DAY die of starvation. That isn't an assumption.


Yet, your belief that an omnipotent God would take care of such things if s/he existed, is an assumption.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:29 am 
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Fosgate wrote:

Okay. Next time someone tells me that they prayed and that the prayer was answered, I'll take their word for it. 8)

You must admit her food looks good and presentation is a significant part of making food enjoyable.

Quote:
Thousands of people a DAY die of starvation. That isn't an assumption.


Fosgate wrote:
Yet, your belief that an omnipotent God would take care of such things if s/he existed, is an assumption.

That's puting it back to front.
An omnipotent god, if such exists, could take care of such things.
Yet, an omnipotent god, if such exists, clearly does not.
If you saw someone starving or otherwise in harm's way wouldn't you do something about it if you could?
I would.

An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenovelent entity yet all the starvation, murder, victims of Tsunamis (20,000 in Japan last time) just isn't logical.
I thus do not have any belief that such an entity exists or even can exist.
So, back to your comment.
It is neither my belief nor my assumption that an omnipotent God would take care of such things.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:11 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:

Okay. Next time someone tells me that they prayed and that the prayer was answered, I'll take their word for it. 8)

You must admit her food looks good and presentation is a significant part of making food enjoyable.
[/quote]

Even if I did, even if I tasted it and agreed wholeheartedly with you, it wouldn't prove your point.

But yes, it looks great. 8)

Quote:
Quote:
Thousands of people a DAY die of starvation. That isn't an assumption.


Fosgate wrote:
Yet, your belief that an omnipotent God would take care of such things if s/he existed, is an assumption.

That's puting it back to front.
An omnipotent god, if such exists, could take care of such things.
Yet, an omnipotent god, if such exists, clearly does not. If you saw someone starving or otherwise in harm's way wouldn't you do something about it if you could? I would.[/
[/quote]Free-will and choice introduce the possibility of evil. If there was no evil, there would be no good, no compassion, no righting wrongs. Everything would be amoral and yet, it isn't. You're suggesting that the existence of evil precludes the existence of an all-powerful, benevolent God. I can just as well counter that existence of good supports just that.

Quote:
An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenovelent entity yet all the starvation, murder, victims of Tsunamis (20,000 in Japan last time) just isn't logical.


Starvation and murder are man's doing. Natural disasters, well, folks eventually die. Stuff happens. We don't look upon such favorably because we lose loved ones. It's an opportunity for one to grow stronger, to leverage themselves as one who can help others down the line when it happens again. We become better through suffering…or just remain raw.

Quote:
I thus do not have any belief that such an entity exists or even can exist.


I understand the first part, but the second? You don’t think it’s possible at all?

Quote:
So, back to your comment.
It is neither my belief nor my assumption that an omnipotent God would take care of such things.


Clearly your expectations are that a benevolent God would. Perhaps in a perfect world…

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:08 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
Even if I did, even if I tasted it and agreed wholeheartedly with you, it wouldn't prove your point.

My point was that I expected it to be good and for me it was.
So yes, I think it proved my point.


Fosgate wrote:
But yes, it looks great. 8)

Thank you kindly. I'll pass that on if you don't mind.

Fosgate wrote:
Starvation and murder are man's doing. Natural disasters, well, folks eventually die. Stuff happens.

Yes, stuff happens. Some of not good and some very bad. An omnipotent entity could prevent it. But it happens. And some people are bad people. Either by nature or nurture. Now, if we were made in god's image.....I'm sure you get the drift.
The explanation that fits with all this is that there is no omnipotent entity. That then removes any need to explain or understand what appears to be contradictory or conflicting information.
Occam's razor, if you like.

Quote:
I thus do not have any belief that such an entity exists or even can exist.


Fosgate wrote:
I understand the first part, but the second? You don’t think it’s possible at all?

I don't. I can't state that such an entity doesn't exist. No more than I can the FSM

Fosgate wrote:
Clearly your expectations are that a benevolent God would. Perhaps in a perfect world…

You're still not with me on this and I don't mean that unkindly.
I have no expectations that any god would do anything.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:37 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
Yes, stuff happens. Some of not good and some very bad.


Your assumption is that you know what's good and what's bad. Would you have been better off as an adult who endured no suffering, no pain at all, in their younger years?

Quote:
An omnipotent entity could prevent it. But it happens.


Yes, for reasons you or I may never understand. As good, benevolent, and well-meaning as God may be, I don't recall anyone, anytime, suggesting that s/he provided us all the answers up front.

Quote:
And some people are bad people. Either by nature or nurture. Now, if we were made in god's image.....I'm sure you get the drift.


That's right, free will came with that image. In part, we chose evil.

Quote:
The explanation that fits with all this is that there is no omnipotent entity.


Or that there is.

Quote:
That then removes any need to explain or understand what appears to be contradictory or conflicting information.
Occam's razor, if you like.


The only way we have contradiction is if we blindly accept that your assumptions are true—that suffering is bad, natural disasters are bad, etc. Evolutionary biology itself demonstrates that this isn’t necessarily true, especially for humans.

Quote:
I don't. I can't state that such an entity doesn't exist. No more than I can the FSM


Actually, you can, but with less than a desirable amount of confidence. You’re confident that dinner will be excellent based on experience that, while unproven, is good enough for you. The same can be said of the faithful and their experiences.

Quote:
You're still not with me on this and I don't mean that unkindly.


No, I’m not, and I say that as a trained and experienced scientist.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:41 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
Your assumption is that you know what's good and what's bad.

As a race we are gregarious. We depend on others and others depend on us. Early humans had to co-operate as a team in order to hunt. To make that work, there have to be certain rules and social norms.
Murder isn't one of them. It's wrong.

Fosgate wrote:
Would you have been better off as an adult who endured no suffering, no pain at all, in their younger years?

If I was a child who'd been beaten by rotten parents it might have scarred me for life. Would that have made me a better person? Who know?

Quote:
An omnipotent entity could prevent it. But it happens.


Fosgate wrote:
Yes, for reasons you or I may never understand.

Or because no such entity exists? Then we wouldn't need reasons.

Quote:
And some people are bad people. Either by nature or nurture. Now, if we were made in god's image.....I'm sure you get the drift.


Fosgate wrote:
That's right, free will came with that image. In part, we chose evil.

Free will is an interesting point. An omniscient being would know what you are going to do before you did it. In fact, with the omniscience, that being would know what you are going to do before you even existed. So you can't surprise god. That doesn't sit comfortable with the notion of free will.
Some people are just bad.

Quote:
The explanation that fits with all this is that there is no omnipotent entity.

Fosgate wrote:
Or that there is.

That there isn't fits better.

Quote:
That then removes any need to explain or understand what appears to be contradictory or conflicting information.
Occam's razor, if you like.


Fosgate wrote:
The only way we have contradiction is if we blindly accept that your assumptions are true—that suffering is bad,

I see no up side to 16,000 children dying every day from starvation no matter how it is painted.
Better that they weren't born in the first place.

Quote:
I don't. I can't state that such an entity doesn't exist. No more than I can the FSM


Fosgate wrote:
Actually, you can, but with less than a desirable amount of confidence.

OK. I should have said that I can't state with certainty.....

Fosgate wrote:
You’re confident that dinner will be excellent based on experience that, while unproven, is good enough for you.
The same can be said of the faithful and their experiences.

I did say that either of my expectations could be wrong. I wasn't claiming proof.
And we do have some things aren't always as good as others. The battered and fried aubergine slices didn't get a hugely great review.
Would an omnipotent being, if such existed, get it wrong now and again.
Do you see that it isn't a like for like parallel?

Quote:
You're still not with me on this and I don't mean that unkindly.

Fosgate wrote:
No, I’m not, and I say that as a trained and experienced scientist.

Yet you make assumptions about my assumptions?


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Besoeker wrote:
Murder isn't one of them. It's wrong.


That's the consensus. Are you willing to accept that we could be wrong on that?

Quote:
Fosgate wrote:
Would you have been better off as an adult who endured no suffering, no pain at all, in their younger years?

If I was a child who'd been beaten by rotten parents it might have scarred me for life. Would that have made me a better person? Who know?

Quote:
An omnipotent entity could prevent it. But it happens.


Not quite what I meant. Even children with the best of parents experience pain, physical and emotional. I ask again, are you better for it or not?

Quote:
Fosgate wrote:
Yes, for reasons you or I may never understand.

Or because no such entity exists? Then we wouldn't need reasons.


You're assuming that an all-powerful, benevolent diety would be inclined to stop bad things from happening. Like I said, good can come from bad, depending on the choices we make in response to it. As a parent, would you always step in to protect your child from failing or would you, at times, allow it to happen?

Quote:
Free will is an interesting point. An omniscient being would know what you are going to do before you did it. In fact, with the omniscience, that being would know what you are going to do before you even existed. So you can't surprise god. That doesn't sit comfortable with the notion of free will.


One needn't be a god to know that human beings fail. This doesn't detract a whit from their free will.

Quote:
Quote:
The explanation that fits with all this is that there is no omnipotent entity.

Fosgate wrote:
Or that there is.

That there isn't fits better.
[/quote]
If that’s what you choose to believe, so be it.

Quote:
I see no up side to 16,000 children dying every day from starvation no matter how it is painted.
Better that they weren't born in the first place.


Really? I’d like to see you say that to their faces. The question is, what are we doing about it and more importantly, is it even working?

Quote:
I did say that either of my expectations could be wrong. I wasn't claiming proof.


You said it was proof enough for you.

Quote:
Would an omnipotent being, if such existed, get it wrong now and again.
Do you see that it isn't a like for like parallel?


I don't presume to know what an omnipotent being wants. I'll leave that to you. :mrgreen:
Quote:
Yet you make assumptions about my assumptions?


I do notice that you’ve made them, yes, in support of or as a result of your beliefs. I make assumptions at times too.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
That's the consensus. Are you willing to accept that we could be wrong on that?

That murder might be OK?
No way.
Fosgate wrote:
Not quite what I meant. Even children with the best of parents experience pain, physical and emotional. I ask again, are you better for it or not?

I don't know and I don't think there's a simple general take on this. No one size fits all. Different circumstances, different backgrounds.
Fosgate wrote:
You're assuming that an all-powerful, benevolent diety

I'm assuming nothing about any deity.

Quote:
Free will is an interesting point. An omniscient being would know what you are going to do before you did it. In fact, with the omniscience, that being would know what you are going to do before you even existed. So you can't surprise god. That doesn't sit comfortable with the notion of free will.

Fosgate wrote:
This doesn't detract a whit from their free will.

If what a person is going to do is long known before they exist what part of that decision is theirs rather than predetermined?

Quote:
The explanation that fits with all this is that there is no omnipotent entity.

If that’s what you choose to believe, so be it.

Quote:
I see no up side to 16,000 children dying every day from starvation no matter how it is painted.
Better that they weren't born in the first place.


Fosgate wrote:
Really? I’d like to see you say that to their faces.

Misses the point.
Bearing children into a society where starvation is a fairly likely fate for many really isn't really a very good outcome. Better that contraception measures are put in place to avoid this in the first place. But sometimes religion and beliefs get in the way of that.

Fosgate wrote:
The question is, what are we doing about it and more importantly, is it even working?

Suggesting abstinence. That clearly isn't working.

Quote:
I did say that either of my expectations could be wrong. I wasn't claiming proof.

Fosgate wrote:
You said it was proof enough for you.

I don't think I did. Evidence, experience, but not proof.
That said, my expectation was proved to be correct in that instance.
It isn't proof in the sense that it is an enduring fact that will always be replicated.
As a scientist, I'm sure you understand the distinction.

Quote:
Would an omnipotent being, if such existed, get it wrong now and again.
Do you see that it isn't a like for like parallel?


Fosgate wrote:
I don't presume to know what an omnipotent being wants.

Nor do I.


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