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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:16 am 
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A number of philosophers have recently claimed that animals have no self awareness and that this is proven by modern findings in neuroscience and hence they cannot suffer. This film :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLSwRcvX72M
investigates this claim with some of the leading neuroscientists and animal scinetists in the world and throughly debunks it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Biolight wrote:
A number of philosophers have recently claimed that animals have no self awareness and that this is proven by modern findings in neuroscience and hence they cannot suffer. This film :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLSwRcvX72M
investigates this claim with some of the leading neuroscientists and animal scinetists in the world and throughly debunks it.


Pure consciousness and feeling exists in all sentient beings. The human that devours cow/pig/lamb/fish etc flesh displays that of a psychopath which 'normal ' people see as that which only exists human to human. Lets explore that rabbit hole labrynth.

They are slaves to feed the slaves.

The system needs the slaves.
Slaves need the system.

Within the system religion enslaves you further. Religion even introduces animals into their satanic regime. What we can and cannot eat. FOOLS!


Every day humans stepping stone upon other humans in the hopeless task of gaining some control of their sad and pathetic lives.

Stress which the modern society puts on people will diminish any altruism they may have.

they are people who will use their intellectual ability to dismiss the 'lesser' animals as they see fit. They have not connected and I do not judge them as such.

When an animal is grazing peacefully and we take her/him and string him/her up and slit their throats then that says alot about our mentality.

Mothy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkJHmLTiX78

But death is the end of all misery.

Perhaps!!! You stood on that first step? Does it really feel solid?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:03 am 
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the only thing specifically unique about humans is that we happen to be that particular species. Looking at computers and the impetus to do new behaviors within a computer program, I have deduced that a significant part of conscious thought is a will... a desired outcome held within the mind. When looking at insects, their microscopic brains have limited capacity so only the thinking that is needed will be included. Social insects like ants and bees require that they return home. This need can be programmed in with instinct but the initialization and execution of this returning home requires a will. On top of that will is a host of problems the insect needs to overcome to achieve that goal. While waiting in vehicles for long times as part of a job, I had the chance to identify a wide variety of insects and the reactions of those insects to windows which apparently cannot be seen with the compound eyes of insects. A fly will pound on the window in the same place and continue for hours. A bee or wasp will check out each window first then will proceed to try different strategies such as checking each corner of each window or walk along the edge. The point is that their behavior changed when the initial behavior failed to achieve results. A fly needs to smell food, eat food, and have sex... the need for will is minimal as there are minimal needs to change that will. It is obvious that those flies (and only some species will pound themselves to death at windows) do not consciously realize there is any problem with the execution of their desire to go through the opening they can see and thus no need nor mechanism to change their will. This, I think is the edge of consciousness (and still an edge rather then a line... these flies may still have enough consciousness to change from "where is the food?" to "lets have sex")


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:17 am 
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I remember the time I gave up meat. I was out in the countryside and we stopped for a bite to eat. I was munching on a meat sandwich when this cattle truck pulled up alongside. This cow was looking at me and I looked into her eyes. I suddenly did not see a cow but a conscious fellow being. A connection was made. That sandwich suddenly felt bad.

Not long after I gave up eating meat I was lying alone in a field when all these cows surrounded me and started licking my shoes.

Coincidence or a logical explanation?

' the creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
George Orwell. Animal Farm.

Most people don't want to die and to put ones tastebuds ahead of an animals life this in my eyes is a heinous act.

Mothy

Animals suffer, they just cannot vocalize like we do. Yet we use this tool to lie.

and just for laughs...

'The early bird gets the worm and the second mouse gets the cheese'.
Willie Nelson.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:27 am 
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Ann Vole wrote:
the only thing specifically unique about humans is that we happen to be that particular species. Looking at computers and the impetus to do new behaviors within a computer program, I have deduced that a significant part of conscious thought is a will... a desired outcome held within the mind. When looking at insects, their microscopic brains have limited capacity so only the thinking that is needed will be included. Social insects like ants and bees require that they return home. This need can be programmed in with instinct but the initialization and execution of this returning home requires a will. On top of that will is a host of problems the insect needs to overcome to achieve that goal. While waiting in vehicles for long times as part of a job, I had the chance to identify a wide variety of insects and the reactions of those insects to windows which apparently cannot be seen with the compound eyes of insects. A fly will pound on the window in the same place and continue for hours. A bee or wasp will check out each window first then will proceed to try different strategies such as checking each corner of each window or walk along the edge. The point is that their behavior changed when the initial behavior failed to achieve results. A fly needs to smell food, eat food, and have sex... the need for will is minimal as there are minimal needs to change that will. It is obvious that those flies (and only some species will pound themselves to death at windows) do not consciously realize there is any problem with the execution of their desire to go through the opening they can see and thus no need nor mechanism to change their will. This, I think is the edge of consciousness (and still an edge rather then a line... these flies may still have enough consciousness to change from "where is the food?" to "lets have sex")


That fly will feel trapped. and possibly frustrated, my observations find the fly will try a new area of window in order to escape.


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