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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:40 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
SiberD wrote:
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And the economy that relies on credit to function.


Wayne, you do realize that credit = debt, right? And you think that is a good thing?


You seem to know very little about business and cash flow. Unless one deals with consumers on a direct cash basis there is a delay in cash flow. With such delays there is the need for short term loans or lines of credit to deal with normal operations. There is also the need for capital for expansion. So, yes, credit is a good thing because nearly every business has to have some type of credit to operate.



SiberD wrote:
And what of all that credit (money) that has been doled out to the "too big to fail banks"? What are they doing with it? They've been using it more for speculation, or just holding on to it, then utilizing it for expansion.

And what about the $900 billion in household revolving debt....

and the $1 TRILLION in student loan debt.....

and the $16 TRILLION in public debt?

or should I just take your word that all credit is good?


I do not claim all credit is good, but it seems you are claiming all credit is bad by your generalizations and we are to just take your word for that. I noticed that you did not respond to the point I made, but instead went off on a strawman deflection.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:20 pm 
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I claim all credit extended to those who don't know what the f**k to do with it is bad, especially when the money involved comes from taxpayers.

Now, outside of national defense, tell me about this wonderful, efficient, and so credit-worthy government we have.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
I claim all credit extended to those who don't know what the f**k to do with it is bad, especially when the money involved comes from taxpayers.

Now, outside of national defense, tell me about this wonderful, efficient, and so credit-worthy government we have.


Outside of national defense? I can see why you would exclude one of the biggest generators of waste in the government if you want to know about efficient operation.

Supposedly it is one of the best governments ever, but you would never know it listening to some folks, so maybe not so much. Hitler did make the trains run on time you know.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Outside of national defense? I can see why you would exclude one of the biggest generators of waste in the government if you want to know about efficient operation.

Supposedly it is one of the best governments ever, but you would never know it listening to some folks, so maybe not so much. Hitler did make the trains run on time you know.


I was inclined to respond with "you can do better than that". However given the circumstances, I know you can't.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:43 pm 
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I do not claim all credit is good, but it seems you are claiming all credit is bad by your generalizations and we are to just take your word for that. I noticed that you did not respond to the point I made, but instead went off on a strawman deflection.


I will admit that some credit is good but the majority of it is not. The majority of credit given to both individuals and government entities, will not be repaid. We currently have over $50,000 of public debt for each US citizen and over $50,000 per US citizen in personal debt. Now, you may be able to afford that but my bet is the majority of US citizens cannot.

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Supposedly it is one of the best governments ever, but you would never know it listening to some folks, so maybe not so much. Hitler did make the trains run on time you know.


We have the best government that money can buy! And you accuse me of a strawman argument, then you invoke Godwin's law when this discussion is only on the 4th page???

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Outside of national defense? I can see why you would exclude one of the biggest generators of waste in the government if you want to know about efficient operation.

Supposedly it is one of the best governments ever, but you would never know it listening to some folks, so maybe not so much. Hitler did make the trains run on time you know.


I was inclined to respond with "you can do better than that". However given the circumstances, I know you can't.


I know. I am surprised at the number of people who deep down really do not like our form of government. They want one that follows their ideals rather than society's, but if "the trains ran on time" they would be happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:52 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
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I do not claim all credit is good, but it seems you are claiming all credit is bad by your generalizations and we are to just take your word for that. I noticed that you did not respond to the point I made, but instead went off on a strawman deflection.


I will admit that some credit is good but the majority of it is not.


That would mean an economy without business or money which really takes you back to a hunter/gatherer bartering for goods.

Quote:
The majority of credit given to both individuals and government entities, will not be repaid.


Really? How about all of that credit to business? If the government entities do not repay the debts you will not have to worry about credit or businesses I suppose.

Quote:
We currently have over $50,000 of public debt for each US citizen and over $50,000 per US citizen in personal debt. Now, you may be able to afford that but my bet is the majority of US citizens cannot.


Yet those than can get special breaks in their taxes the rest do not. It seems there should be a fix there somewhere.

Quote:
Quote:
Supposedly it is one of the best governments ever, but you would never know it listening to some folks, so maybe not so much. Hitler did make the trains run on time you know.


We have the best government that money can buy! And you accuse me of a strawman argument, then you invoke Godwin's law when this discussion is only on the 4th page???


Godwin's Law only applies if the reference does not directly relate to the discussion. In this case the appeal of the form of government is often related to the personal impact of the individual. Thus, the reason for the approval due to the train schedule.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
I was inclined to respond with "you can do better than that". However given the circumstances, I know you can't.


I know. I am surprised at the number of people who deep down really do not like our form of government.


You shouldn't be. The problem isn't the form of government. It's what some see it transitioning into that is the problem.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.

Substitute "representative republic" for "democracy" and "enough" for "majority", and it fits us quite well. Not that it necessarily matters, but how long before enough become the majority, you think?

Quote:
They want one that follows their ideals rather than society's,


I'm sure they do, especially in the case of overseas "they's" persecuted and killed because of the rest of society's "ideals". That majority thing doesn't work so well when it's rotten to the core. I'm sure worst case scenario here in the US would be the loss of very basic civil rights and resulting incarcerations. Drop me a line when they start screwing with the 2nd amendment, will you?

Quote:
but if "the trains ran on time" they would be happy.


What's with the Reductio ad Hitlerum kick? Do "they" want it their way or do they want on-time trains? Which is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:36 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Taxes are the government TRANSFER of money from the population to the government for public works. That definition does not cover the usage of the term.

A leg is an appendage on a dog, so calling a tail a leg can be done, but it does not make a dog have five legs.




That supports my point well. The definition does not fit and the use is based on ingorance fueled by emotionalism.


Your continuous reference to CT's absurd blib is truly irritating.

Now, I have revealed to you that inflation effects the economy is a VERY similar manner to taxes in terms of loss of purchasing power to the public. I have also revealed to you that this concept is accepted, and acceptable, as the Wikipedia article clearly shows. Therefore, that is my only point and all other points that you have made are hereof are either irrelevent or red herring. What arguments do you have to prove that the Inflation Tax does not exist, or does not operate in a similar manner as taxes?


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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:38 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
That would mean an economy without business or money which really takes you back to a hunter/gatherer bartering for goods.


There are plenty of opportunities for expansion without borrowing money.


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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:56 am 
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HeritageFarm wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Taxes are the government TRANSFER of money from the population to the government for public works. That definition does not cover the usage of the term.

A leg is an appendage on a dog, so calling a tail a leg can be done, but it does not make a dog have five legs.


That supports my point well. The definition does not fit and the use is based on ingorance fueled by emotionalism.


Your continuous reference to CT's absurd blib is truly irritating.


Do you mean the Abraham Lincoln quote? Is it not appropriate to a discussion where something is being called a term for which it does not meet the definition? I think so.

Quote:
Now, I have revealed to you that inflation effects the economy is a VERY similar manner to taxes in terms of loss of purchasing power to the public.


Inflation can affect the economy, so does deflation and natural disasters, but they are not called taxes. Stock market declines have an effect, as do wars, pandemics, and many other things which also do not meet the definition of a tax.

Quote:
I have also revealed to you that this concept is accepted, and acceptable, as the Wikipedia article clearly shows.


Wiki articles are nothing but an opinion piece with multiple possibilities for input, but none of which have to be anyone with any real knowledge on the subject.

Quote:
Therefore, that is my only point and all other points that you have made are hereof are either irrelevent or red herring. What arguments do you have to prove that the Inflation Tax does not exist, or does not operate in a similar manner as taxes?


The inflation tax does not exist because you cannot show the legislation, order, decree, collection method, accounting, or any other reference to the creation of such a tax. The process by which inflation is created is even variable in that it does not appear each and every time with the same characteristics. It may have some similarities with a tax in relation to buying power, but so do house fires, loss, theft, job loss, recession, depression, and many other unrelated actions.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:01 am 
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HeritageFarm wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
That would mean an economy without business or money which really takes you back to a hunter/gatherer bartering for goods.


There are plenty of opportunities for expansion without borrowing money.


Not really, unless you are dealing with a cash transaction business where you do not have to maintain an inventory. That essentially rules out most business to business ventures and any business of a size that requires multiple employees.

Do you know a business can fail because it is doing too well without proper credit in place?

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:07 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
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but if "the trains ran on time" they would be happy.


What's with the Reductio ad Hitlerum kick? Do "they" want it their way or do they want on-time trains? Which is it?


Both. The trains are a reference to an efficient government (your reference) and then they want one to cater to their desires.

The Nazi government is a good and valid example of an efficient government but not one most people would want if given the choice. That removes the Reductio ad Hitlerum connection. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:27 am 
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Oh, right, I forgot about that. The Nazi's were efficient, and we certainly don't want to be in any way like them. Can't have that. :crazy:

Weak. :thumbdown:

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 Post subject: Re: Big Mouth Romney....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:46 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
Oh, right, I forgot about that. The Nazi's were efficient, and we certainly don't want to be in any way like them. Can't have that. :crazy:

Weak. :thumbdown:


Not weak, just pointing out the criteria listed may not be the most appropriate for the overall view. Many of the "bad" governments were very efficient and inversely many of the "good" governments were not as much.

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