EnviroLink Forum

It is obvious that you must leap to that conclusion in order to try to convince yourself you have a point. In reality the point is no more obvious than Hitler's willingness to split eastern Europe with Stalin when the secret agreements were made. The problem is the assumption is not supported by the following actions. The fact that no documents have been changed and that attacks have continued after Israel turned over territory in good faith after negotiations removes the supposed "obvious" assumptions.



That would require the "giving up" of the only real negotiating card as you put it. You cannot both keep the card and use it in negotiations.



Only if you have problems with reading comprehension.

I sent Congresswoman Tsongas a response letter. It most likely was not the response she may have been hoping for. I told her that, having worked in Gaza, it is clear to me that recognition of Israel's Right to Exist would imply acceptance of the notion that Palestinians deserve to be treated as subhumans, a condition to which they are already subjected in violation of the Geneva Conventions of the U.N.

If the people in Gaza cannot recognize Israel's right to exist because it would make them think they deserved to be treated as a subhuman, the problem is with them. Without the recognition of a group's right to exist that group cannot hope to negotiate any meaningful agreement. Anything negotiated can be easily revoked by the destruction of the group which has no right to exist.



Given the previous lack of comprehension of a writing this is to be expected even though there are equal references to the religious problems that would exist on eithe rside whcih does not carry the same weight with a secular group.



Nope. Three different computers and all gave the same message.



It is not a part of the peace negotiation, it is a clear requirement prior to any peace negotiation. If your right to exist must be something you have to try to negotiate, you have no business negotiating with that group especially if you have the ability to destry them because they are going to try to destroy you.



Except you never had a house or a yard, it was owned by your neighbor and I acquired it in payment for damages from that neighbor.




Odd that you somehow ignore decades of history in leaping from one point to another. Israel did not "go into expansionist mode" the Arabe nations did when they took the land the Palestinians now want to claim. Those same Arab nations tried to take the land from Israel except the Israeli people fought back and kept their land .... unlike the Palestinian people.



How did the train of discussion derail so quickly? The leap seemed to put Superman to shame.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

I went into edit to copy and paste the links and that worked.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/cha ... 325859818/

07/01/12

But along comes the supreme Hamas leader, Khaled Mash’al, and declares that Hamas has given up all violent action. From now on it will concentrate on non-violent mass demonstrations, in the spirit of the Arab Spring.

When Hamas forswears terrorism, there is no pretext for an attack on Gaza.

So no more violent actions since before July 2012? Wow, that means those hundreds of rockets reported on the news did not really happen? It seems the "opinion" piece has little conncetion to reality, which is to be expected given the quality of references provided.

This is a wikisource, but it does list a series of references for support
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2012

July

In July, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians launched 18 rockets and 9 mortar shells at Israel in 28 separate attacks.

August

In August, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 21 rockets and 3 mortar shells at Israel in 16 separate attacks.

September

In September, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 17 rockets and 8 mortar shells at Israel in 25 separate attacks.

October

In October, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 116 rockets and 55 mortar shells at Israel in 92 separate attacks.

November

In November, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 1734 rockets and 83 mortar shells at Israel in 633 separate attacks.

1906 rockets and 158 mortar shells in 794 separate attacks in the six months after the article declaring that "Hamas has given up all violent action" was published. I suppose one can believe in one's belief or one can look at the facts to see if the beliefs are supported. The latter indicates an acceptance of violent action if not a clear desire for it by Hamas. One can assume they really wanted to stop the violence, but the actions do not support that belief.

The other article is not even worth discussing after the rest of the glaring failures.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerma ... so-elusive

The security environment continues to deteriorate. In 2012, the Israeli security service reports, there were 578 terrorist attacks in the West Bank, up from 320 in 2011. On the Gaza border, where Israel once had a security presence, 281 rockets were fired into Israel its last full year there; by 2006, with Israel having left Gaza, the rocket barrage number rose to 1,777. The world looks the other way. Israel is expected to bear all this with grace and fortitude. But it can't. Is there any society that would sit on its hands when its citizens are routinely exposed to death, injury, and destruction?

Imagine Washington under missile attack from nearby Baltimore as a way to understand what it is to be targeted by thousands of rocket and missile attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah. And this is a region that seems to be moving from the era of personal dictators to an era of dictatorial Islamic fundamentalism. When Israelis witness the slaughter in Syria and the world looks the other way, they understand what would have happened to them had they not been strong in 1948 and again in 1973 when Egypt and the coalition of Arab states took them by surprise in launching the Yom Kippur War. They are not inclined to let their guard down again.


http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerma ... iddle-east

All of the efforts that seemed to put progress within reach, from the Oslo process and talks between Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat at Camp David to Ehud Olmert's offer to Mahmoud Abbas in 2007 to withdraw from most of the West Bank, have only resulted in intifada and terror, all on the grounds that Israel has been intransigent.

It was "intransigent" Israel that pulled out of Gaza, dismantled every settlement there, withdrew every soldier, gave the land to the Gazans—and got no peace. It was "intransigent" Israel that pulled out of Lebanon, only to see Hezbollah, a puppet of Iran, gain power with the help of the murderous Syrian occupiers.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

That's what happens when you occupy other people's land.


You're shameless. They control the borders, bomb at will, starve them at will and as far as withdrawing Settlements, Arial Sharon made it very clear why he withdrew the Settlements. It had become too expensive to protect them and he wanted to concentrate Settlement building on the West Bank and Jerusalem where security was easier to impose. Apparently you and your Aipac buddies just don't jack enough money out of the American taxpayers to cover the costs. Try harder.


You did read the article mentioning Israel's role in the rise of Hezbollah as well as Hamas didn't you? A little Karma here I'd say. As for withdrawing from Lebanon I guess they should get the Santa Claus award for exiting another country. Unlike Palestine there was some real effective resistance. I guess they didn't like getting their butts shot off.

Checked my links out again and they all worked fine. Didn't even have to try twice on any of them. As far as my characterization of the links all were accurate although not complete. The fact that you think otherwise is your problem. Anyway folks can read them and decide for themselves.

One thing I'll say for your clueless insistence on a before negotiation requirement that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state; that is the position of every hardline apologist for Israel I've come across. You're all in lockstep on that mindless mantra. And this is despite the fact that no borders have been agreed on and no reciprocal acceptance of a Palestine state is part of this deal. But you folks still play this ridiculous game of demanding something that belongs in the realm of a negotiated settlement.

I don't expect you to change your views Wayne. Ideologues seldom change their views in my experience. My concluding perspective is you are not minimally serious or rational on this matter. You're simply not anchored to reality. But ideologies, religious or otherwise, seem to operate that way.

Go ahead and take your best shot. I'm done.

If someone's trying to kick my ass, I don't care how big or small they are nor what happened in the past, I'm going to do my best to return the favor.

There's a time, a place, and just the right combination of factors that come together that have to occur before negotiation becomes an option. Lobbing ordnance just about rules it out. But you go telling others they aren't grounded in reality, mkay?

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TANG SOO!

So you only have a circular logic with which to work? If that is what happens when you occupy other people's land how far back do you go to determine who owns the land? The Jordanians? The British? The Ottomans? The tribes of Israel?



At least I can deal with facts rather than beliefs.



Because the governing body will not guarantee peace, therefore the border must be controlled to prevent shipments of weapons. It is called security.



In response to attacks made upon Israel. Odd that attacks from one side is acceptable in your mind as a path to peace, but a response form the other is not.



Yet they smuggle in arms rather than food?



Really? All it would require is to remove the Palestinians, which you seem to believe is the goal, so why not just remove them and be done with it?




The opinion piece?



And the Karma in response to attacks on Israel is not applicable? Your hypocritical position must be difficult to maintain.



Like the Arabs who took the lands from the people of Palestine? No, you don't count that do you? Maybe because it was them who lost the lands due to the contiual war footing?



I am sure they can and they should have a better comprehension of how not being able to recognize the right of Israel to exist would make that a problem for any peace plan and would be a cause directly attributed to the Palestinians.



If you cannot see where such a point would have to be in place in order for anyone to begin to believe the negoiations are going to be made in good faith, there is nothing which can be done to remove your ignorance. Given the stated goals of destruction, why would lying not be used in the process?



Nor should there be. If I repeatedly say I am going to kill you over an extended period and then wish to negotiate an agreement to partially disarm you, would you trust me to negoiate in good faith?



Not in the real world, but then again that seems to be unrelated to where you are getting your information.



Good, because it would be stupidity to follow your views.



That is probably why you ignore history and logic in yuor beliefs.



Given the level of rationality you have provided, I believe I can take that as a compliment considering the source.



Actually, I am. You on the other hand seem to be anchored to a cloud.



No, you never were able to start a rational defense of your position.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2187520?seq=2

Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Nations

I "Every nation has the right to exist, and to protect and to conserve its existence."

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

How about our existence?
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorial ... osques.htm

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”
― Chief Seattle

One doesn't have to look far to see the politics of IBD is rightwing nutcase. Just the comments on their site show the kind of xenophobic whack jobs they attract. Until I see it from an objective source I don't believe a word of the article.

The best thing for the entire world would be the non-existence of the islam cult and its followers . IMHO

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”
― Chief Seattle

How about the Christian cult and its followers?

After that a general non-existence most of the rest, in the way of evolving to stronger and smarter people back to the population of 10K or more years ago, or a new well determined sustainable long term level.
http://www.amilimani.com
About 4 or 5 years ago he wrote a treatise on how islam met all the characteristics of a cult. He had been through it.
I suppose A number of Christian sects are in the same category except only generally harmful to themselves, or with over-breeding, to the whole biosphere. Again, IMHO.
Personally, I would like to see the end of all foreign aid except in free contraception and Eco-education, and the the money saved to help go emissions and debt free. The USA should have been leading they way in that direction many years ago. IMHO
I agree that Israel deserves its nationhood in the area they lived several thousand years and given to them from the winning powers of WWII. Their religion does not say to kill all who do not believe the way they do or to lie in furtherance of their religion is acceptable practice. They are in an overpopulated place, too. Just like the entire planet. Give them free contraceptive and Eco-educational help like most others, especially first, our own nation.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”
― Chief Seattle

Too bad you've got your environmentalism mixed up with sick bigotry.

Muslims were talking about the problem of exponential growth long before Malthus came along. Your cluelessness about Christian cults colonizing, murdering and wrecking the planet far more than anything Muslims ever imagined is stunning. And of course out breeding everybody. It's perversely consistent that you would arrogantly support the anti-Semitic pogrom, holocaust producing Christians shoving Israel down Muslims throats as a kind of "sorry" gesture. You've got a little problem with your supposed no aid to foreigners policy when Israel is the biggest aid sucker we have. But then they only ethnically cleanse Muslim and Christian Palestinians.

Sick bigotry? Ethnic cleansing by Jews? Plus more pro-moslem claptrap. Are you a moslem?
You sure seem like one, lying in furtherance of the kill cult

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”
― Chief Seattle

I'm not a member of any religion but I do know you are an historical moron and a bigot. It would seem appropriate to take your hate speech over to another site and stick to environmentalist issues over here minus your genocidal impulses.