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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:34 am 
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ralfy wrote:
Related:

"The Sandy Hook Massacre and the Merchant$ of Death"

"Americans need to understand that the NRA is very much a part of this global arms trade. If one follows the money, the reasons why the NRA is adamantly opposed to any sort of regulation on guns becomes painfully apparent. While the US domestic arms industry conveniently wraps itself and its profit motive behind the patriotic fervor of the Second Amendment and the colonial ghosts of Founding Fathers, the horrors of the Sandy Hook massacre are blamed on everything under the sun except for that which hides in plain sight — an unregulated, out-of-control global and domestic arms industry."

http://collapseofindustrialcivilization ... -of-death/


Thank you for providing this link. "Democracy Now" and Amy Goodman are doing excellent work in bringing the truth to the fore. 1.74 trillion dollars in the global arms trade and the NRA at the helm ..... voting against the global arms treaty, funded by merchants of death ..... those who are manufacturing and selling arms to places like Angola, Liberia, and the Congo where people are being slaughtered, just as they are in the US.

The NRA distribute myths about the treaty, while shouting "freedom" and "the right to be armed" and yet not even taking into consideration the right to life! Little consideration for the hundreds of millions whose lives have been affected by the insistence on that "right". So misguided while creating very unsafe, insecure conditions in the US and in the world. Who, I wonder, will protect us from the NRA who are clearly in it for the money .....


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:43 am 
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I don't care if assault weapons get banned... I don't think normal people need mega-guns aside from shooting stuff for much and a show of macho-ism. But but one aspect of guns, and Obama will come after another portion of it until all guns are banned. Therefore I will resist bans on any guns, but will support background checks, and the medical checks which sound like a good idea.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:02 am 
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Quote:
The NRA distribute myths about the treaty, while shouting "freedom" and "the right to be armed" and yet not even taking into consideration the right to life! Little consideration for the hundreds of millions whose lives have been affected by the insistence on that "right". So misguided while creating very unsafe, insecure conditions in the US and in the world. Who, I wonder, will protect us from the NRA who are clearly in it for the money .....


No, the NRA's job is to protect us from people like you who don't have a clue about how important self-defense is. Criminals don't pay attention to laws. Disarm the general public, and you arm the criminals. (And the government; Just check out Hitler's tactics.)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:39 am 
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HeritageFarm wrote:
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The NRA distribute myths about the treaty, while shouting "freedom" and "the right to be armed" and yet not even taking into consideration the right to life! Little consideration for the hundreds of millions whose lives have been affected by the insistence on that "right". So misguided while creating very unsafe, insecure conditions in the US and in the world. Who, I wonder, will protect us from the NRA who are clearly in it for the money .....


No, the NRA's job is to protect us from people like you who don't have a clue about how important self-defense is. Criminals don't pay attention to laws. Disarm the general public, and you arm the criminals. (And the government; Just check out Hitler's tactics.)



The problem is the NRA's stance of no control does increase the chance the majority of the population will eventually decide that disarming the minority is the safest move. That is why a reasonable approach to some control is needed. If not the eventual outcome will the the total ban the NRA claims it is fighting to prevent by opposing all control.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:27 pm 
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"Disarming the minority" would have to include the criminals, the police, and the military, etc. or safety of the majority could not be guaranteed. :shock: 8) :-k =; :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :mrgreen: #-o
Of course, it would have to be a global thing, to really guarantee any safety. No warships, missiles, bombs, cannons, warplanes, mines, booby traps, swords, sharpened sticks, any blade longer than 1/2", hammers, saws, nails larger than 4D, clubs including 2x4s, and clenching a fist or snapping teeth, kicking, and rocks larger enough to throw and damage would need to be broken, and all poisons rendered neutral, etc. Those that enforce the rules would first have to obey them, and use only reason to disarm the world so no one will kill another. [-X [-o< =D> O:)
Otherwise, it is not really reasonable, logically.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
"Disarming the minority" would have to include the criminals, the police, and the military, etc. or safety of the majority could not be guaranteed.


No, the legislation would not have to include the police or military and any private individual owning a gun would be a criminal by definition.

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Of course, it would have to be a global thing, to really guarantee any safety. No warships, missiles, bombs, cannons, warplanes, mines, booby traps, swords, sharpened sticks, any blade longer than 1/2", hammers, saws, nails larger than 4D, clubs including 2x4s, and clenching a fist or snapping teeth, kicking, and rocks larger enough to throw and damage would need to be broken, and all poisons rendered neutral, etc. Those that enforce the rules would first have to obey them, and use only reason to disarm the world so no one will kill another. [-X [-o< =D> O:)
Otherwise, it is not really reasonable, logically.


That is the subject of debate, and not a very well presented strawman because there is never a guarantee of saftey.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Arming the populace does not provide any more of a guarantee of safety for the populace either so that approach can also be discarded as useless? :-

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:41 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Arming the populace does not provide any more of a guarantee of safety for the populace either so that approach can also be discarded as useless? :-


Why, because most people would be more likely to shoot their own foot than the criminal?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:06 pm 
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HeritageFarm wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Arming the populace does not provide any more of a guarantee of safety for the populace either so that approach can also be discarded as useless? :-


Why, because most people would be more likely to shoot their own foot than the criminal?


That is possible, but having a firearm does not guarantee safety by any means.

This is not the information presented concerning use by CCW holders by the CCW class I attended.

http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

The Violence Policy Center’s Concealed Carry Killers database documents 370 incidents in 32 states. In more than three quarters of the incidents (295) the concealed carry killer has already been convicted (121), committed suicide (167), or was killed in the incident (seven). Of the 65 cases still pending, the vast majority (52) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, five were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and eight incidents are still under investigation. An additional 10 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. At least 14 of the victims were law enforcement officers. Twenty-three of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 103 victims.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:45 am 
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Yes.... And how many other people are using concealed weapons responsibly?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:24 am 
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HeritageFarm wrote:
Yes.... And how many other people are using concealed weapons responsibly?


It does not matter because the point was the lack of guarantee for safety. If we are to use that as a guide CCW and gun ownership in general fails that test. If we do not use that as a guide for CCW or gun ownership then we cannot use it in the discussion of reasonable gun control measures.

When I took my class the instructors claimed there had never been a CCW holder convicted of a crime involving a firearm, which is refuted by the information in the site. Since the instuctors were NRA instuctors too, I suspect they got their information from the NRA. In any case, I questioned the statement at the time because of the probability is not going to be such, but they were sure the process of obtaining the CCW weeded out any such potential lawbreakers.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Does the site have a total of LEGAL CCW License holders, and the number of those, not illegal CCW, involved in crimes?
To arbitrarily say the "violence control center" is right and your CCW instructors are wrong is impudent. :razz:
Also, what is the number(A) of >legal gun owners, including police, gov't agents, and military<, versus the number of >illegal< homicides per year by these legal gun owners(B)?
That would give a more accurate picture of just how dangerous gun owners are to the non-gun owner population, which should also be given in hard numbers. (C)
Answer A, B, & C, please. :mrgreen:

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Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Does the site have a total of LEGAL CCW License holders, and the number of those, not illegal CCW, involved in crimes?


What would an "illegal CCW permit" be exactly? Either it is a CCW permit or it is not. If it is not it would not be identified outside of looking through the person's paperwork.

Quote:
To arbitrarily say the "violence control center" is right and your CCW instructors are wrong is impudent. :razz:


The references the VCC provided for my state were easily confirmed so it was clear the instructors were wrong in their statement since at least one of the convictions listed was 2 years prior to my class.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Does the site have a total of LEGAL CCW License holders, and the number of those, not illegal CCW, involved in crimes?
To arbitrarily say the "violence control center" is right and your CCW instructors are wrong is impudent. :razz:
Also, what is the number(A) of >legal gun owners, including police, gov't agents, and military<, versus the number of >illegal< homicides per year by these >legal< gun owners(B)?
That would give a more accurate picture of just how dangerous gun owners are to the non-gun owner population, which should also be given in hard numbers. (C)
Answer A, B, & C, please. :mrgreen:

Oh, by the way, illegal CCW is carrying a concealed weapon without the necessary license(and up to date and valid).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Does the site have a total of LEGAL CCW License holders, and the number of those, not illegal CCW, involved in crimes?
To arbitrarily say the "violence control center" is right and your CCW instructors are wrong is impudent. :razz:
Also, what is the number(A) of >legal gun owners, including police, gov't agents, and military<, versus the number of >illegal< homicides per year by these >legal< gun owners(B)?
That would give a more accurate picture of just how dangerous gun owners are to the non-gun owner population, which should also be given in hard numbers. (C)
Answer A, B, & C, please. :mrgreen:

Oh, by the way, illegal CCW is carrying a concealed weapon without the necessary license(and up to date and valid).


That would be carry of a concealed weapon and should not be confused with a CCW which is the legal permit to do so.

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