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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:11 am 
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The next big concern will be solid or more correctly powdered explosives made of more common materials. I foresee the curtail of nearly all carry on baggage and the requirement that all electronics be isolated in separated checked baggage.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:31 am 
Wayne Stollings wrote:
X-Black wrote:
hunter88 wrote:
I am keeping an open mind until we see some hard evidence.


Quote:
About what?


About the latest arrests. The police arrested a couple of young Muslims last month, they shot one of them and they were innocent. The police also shot a Brazilian man nine times in the head, he was innocent.


Which has no bearing on the cases in discussion as the process of arrest or apprehension is limited to split second decisions and not the presentation of evidence.

Quote:
Innocent until proved guilty


In the courts, yes.

Quote:
Quote:
The chemicals needed to do this attack could not be found in the airport nor did they need a detonator. The news said it was chemicals to be smuggled onto the planes then mixed when in the air. These chemicals then became very volatile and would cause an explosion when dropped or thrown. Nothing of that kind could be sourced in an air port shop.


Quote:
Actually they were going to use cameras to set off their bombs. Which were set in sports drink bottles with the explosive on the bottom of the bottle.


Quote:
All them arrested are British and from middle class Muslim families. They have connections in Pakistan like most Pakistani families.


Quote:
And it seems some spent time in Pakistan lately for training on how to set the bombs. Plus they have also arrested some people in Pakistan for taking part. So it seems this may be a little bigger then you thought, and not all home grown.


It's amazing how the USA media report things :roll:

They wasn't going to use a detonator, as reported by the British police, it was just a chemical mix.

The "main man" is said to be in Pakistan but is a British born Pakistani. I know many Pakistani people and ALL go to Pakistan to visit family. None have been arrested in Pakistan at the moment but the "main man" will be when found.


Odd the BBC stated there were detonators to be used. One of the passing references on the new mentioned a partial name of one component. It is something you should be able to find in the larger airports with shops. They also carried the information of the arrest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4783141.stm

It is thought that the suspects were planning to blow up several planes by using liquid explosives carried in soft-drink bottles, and detonators disguised as electronic equipment.

<snip>

Officials in Pakistan said security forces in the country had arrested two British men of Pakistani origin in connection with the alleged plot.



Quote:
I fail to see how you are getting different reports. This is a British police operation and they leak what they want to and I am sure it is reported to the UK press first.


So far the BBC has confirmed what we have heard on the news here, I do not know what the problem might be with your local news as I have no idea of their accuracy in such a situation.

Quote:
What concerns me most is the fact that some young British Muslims are turning to suicide killings.


That is a concern regardless of the nationality, IMO.


And agian I will say "not according to POLICE reports"

In England you are innocent until proved guilty.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:33 am 
Quote:
So far the BBC has confirmed what we have heard on the news here, I do not know what the problem might be with your local news as I have no idea of their accuracy in such a situation.


Erm, national news flash reports on news 24.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:42 am 
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X-Black wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
X-Black wrote:
hunter88 wrote:
I am keeping an open mind until we see some hard evidence.


Quote:
About what?


About the latest arrests. The police arrested a couple of young Muslims last month, they shot one of them and they were innocent. The police also shot a Brazilian man nine times in the head, he was innocent.


Which has no bearing on the cases in discussion as the process of arrest or apprehension is limited to split second decisions and not the presentation of evidence.

Quote:
Innocent until proved guilty


In the courts, yes.

Quote:
Quote:
The chemicals needed to do this attack could not be found in the airport nor did they need a detonator. The news said it was chemicals to be smuggled onto the planes then mixed when in the air. These chemicals then became very volatile and would cause an explosion when dropped or thrown. Nothing of that kind could be sourced in an air port shop.


Quote:
Actually they were going to use cameras to set off their bombs. Which were set in sports drink bottles with the explosive on the bottom of the bottle.


Quote:
All them arrested are British and from middle class Muslim families. They have connections in Pakistan like most Pakistani families.


Quote:
And it seems some spent time in Pakistan lately for training on how to set the bombs. Plus they have also arrested some people in Pakistan for taking part. So it seems this may be a little bigger then you thought, and not all home grown.


It's amazing how the USA media report things :roll:

They wasn't going to use a detonator, as reported by the British police, it was just a chemical mix.

The "main man" is said to be in Pakistan but is a British born Pakistani. I know many Pakistani people and ALL go to Pakistan to visit family. None have been arrested in Pakistan at the moment but the "main man" will be when found.


Odd the BBC stated there were detonators to be used. One of the passing references on the new mentioned a partial name of one component. It is something you should be able to find in the larger airports with shops. They also carried the information of the arrest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4783141.stm

It is thought that the suspects were planning to blow up several planes by using liquid explosives carried in soft-drink bottles, and detonators disguised as electronic equipment.

<snip>

Officials in Pakistan said security forces in the country had arrested two British men of Pakistani origin in connection with the alleged plot.



Quote:
I fail to see how you are getting different reports. This is a British police operation and they leak what they want to and I am sure it is reported to the UK press first.


So far the BBC has confirmed what we have heard on the news here, I do not know what the problem might be with your local news as I have no idea of their accuracy in such a situation.

Quote:
What concerns me most is the fact that some young British Muslims are turning to suicide killings.


That is a concern regardless of the nationality, IMO.


And agian I will say "not according to POLICE reports"

In England you are innocent until proved guilty.


So the BBC is not privy to the POLICE reports, but you are? Do the police come to your house, there is a special receiver, or what?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:45 am 
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X-Black wrote:
Quote:
So far the BBC has confirmed what we have heard on the news here, I do not know what the problem might be with your local news as I have no idea of their accuracy in such a situation.


Erm, national news flash reports on news 24.


Such news 'flashes' are often inaccurate due to confusion during breaking news, but you are free to believe what ever you wish. The later and more easily confirmed reports by the BBC confirm what we have been told in the US.

The initial reports on 9/11 ran the gambit even on the national news reports.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:54 am 
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X-Black wrote:
This has nothing to do with animal rights archer. This is a serious topic.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You said it yourself! LOL!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:57 am 
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Quote:
They wasn't going to use a detonator, as reported by the British police, it was just a chemical mix.


You got half of it. They were to mix the liquids after they got on the plane, but the last component was the electrical device that would set off the mix. This is why all liquids and all electrical devices were not allowed on the plane in carry on.

Quote:
What concerns me most is the fact that some young British Muslims are turning to suicide killings.


I don't think it will really matter if the terrorists are British born, Pakistian born or US born, when it comes to the overall scheme of things. The key is they don't feel they are British, they feel they are Muslim. They do not have a connection to the country they are living in. They have a connection to a religion, and that is more important then any allegiance to a country. We can call them home grown because they are born in the UK or the US. But the fact remains they are loyal only to their religion, not to anyone or anything else.

That's why this is a religious war. Whether it's terrorists that want to blow up planes, or Iran leadership, or the Hezbollah, or Al Qaeda, it's really all the same. If you do not believe what they believe, then you need to be wiped off the face of the earth.

I will have to say, I don't think we would have been able to stop this if the whole thing was taking place here instead of the UK. Your law enforcement has the ability to do things there that our law enforcement is not allowed to do. We hamstring our law enforcement, and then complain when we don't think they're doing a good enough job. From reports here some of the new regulations put in since your last bombing helped discover this plot. It would be nice if we could learn a lesson from that, but I don't see that happening.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:05 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
The next big concern will be solid or more correctly powdered explosives made of more common materials. I foresee the curtail of nearly all carry on baggage and the requirement that all electronics be isolated in separated checked baggage.


And that would be a bad thing? I'm really kind of surprised that carry on baggage and electronics weren't banned a long time ago. And it is rather odd that everybody is surprised about the use of liquid explosives by terrorists. Terrorists have known for some time about their use and terrorist instruction manuals on using acetone peroxide have been in existance for at least 10 years. The main question shoud be why haven't airlines protected themselves against the possible use of them long ago?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:43 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
The next big concern will be solid or more correctly powdered explosives made of more common materials. I foresee the curtail of nearly all carry on baggage and the requirement that all electronics be isolated in separated checked baggage.

That's not going to help, in the long run. My guess is that airline security is going to have to become about finding the people, not the bombs. El Al airlines has an amazing security process that is a combination of passenger profiling, device/materials detection, etc. They interview every passenger and spend a lot more time on people who act erratically or fit certain profiles.

I realize that this is going to lead to all sorts of harassment and other humiliations by people who fit the profile, but I fear there really is no other way to do it that lowers risk levels.

-josh


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:02 am 
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josh knauer wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
The next big concern will be solid or more correctly powdered explosives made of more common materials. I foresee the curtail of nearly all carry on baggage and the requirement that all electronics be isolated in separated checked baggage.

That's not going to help, in the long run. My guess is that airline security is going to have to become about finding the people, not the bombs. El Al airlines has an amazing security process that is a combination of passenger profiling, device/materials detection, etc. They interview every passenger and spend a lot more time on people who act erratically or fit certain profiles.

I realize that this is going to lead to all sorts of harassment and other humiliations by people who fit the profile, but I fear there really is no other way to do it that lowers risk levels.

-josh


I agree, but then again I'm not a "politically correct at all costs" liberal.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:13 pm 
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Quote:
I realize that this is going to lead to all sorts of harassment and other humiliations by people who fit the profile, but I fear there really is no other way to do it that lowers risk levels.


That would be profiling and the ACLU would never let you get away with it. When the threat came down about the NY subway and backpacks, it was the ACLU that said we couldn't stop certain people to look in their backpacks.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:45 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
The next big concern will be solid or more correctly powdered explosives made of more common materials. I foresee the curtail of nearly all carry on baggage and the requirement that all electronics be isolated in separated checked baggage.


And that would be a bad thing? I'm really kind of surprised that carry on baggage and electronics weren't banned a long time ago. And it is rather odd that everybody is surprised about the use of liquid explosives by terrorists. Terrorists have known for some time about their use and terrorist instruction manuals on using acetone peroxide have been in existance for at least 10 years. The main question shoud be why haven't airlines protected themselves against the possible use of them long ago?


If you have ever been in Dallas and your luggage in Houston with a meeting to attend you were always sure to pack the essentials in your carry on but now there may be no essentials.

I want the toiletries concession at the airports now!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:50 pm 
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Quote:
want the toiletries concession at the airports now!!!


But if you're in Dallas, your luggage is in Houston, and you have no carry on, where will you put those toiletries? And then you have to think about throwing them all away the next day when you have to make the next leg of your trip.

When I used to train new salesmen I could sometimes fly out on Sunday night and work in four different cities over the next four days flying out each day after work. I'd go broke buying and throwing away all that stuff everyday. Makes me glad I now stay home, and leave the flying to someone else.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:58 am 
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SiberD wrote:
Terrorists have known for some time about their use and terrorist instruction manuals on using acetone peroxide have been in existance for at least 10 years.


These days, even wikipedia has detailed instructions in one of their chemistry articles. I was reading it last night.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chemical_s ... e_peroxide

Quote:
The main question shoud be why haven't airlines protected themselves against the possible use of them long ago?


http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/43998.pdf
Operational issues for trace detection include the impact of increased screening time, the consequences of erroneous and innocuous detections, the ability to detect novel explosives, and the potential for intentional disruption of the screening process.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:07 am 
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Before long, we will all be stripped down at the airport and only allowed to board wearing a hospital gown.
And that could be very ugly... :wink:

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