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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:51 am 
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oinks wrote:
Before long, we will all be stripped down at the airport and only allowed to board wearing a hospital gown.
And that could be very ugly... :wink:



The membership into the Mile High Club might become easier though .... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:01 am 
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Red wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Terrorists have known for some time about their use and terrorist instruction manuals on using acetone peroxide have been in existance for at least 10 years.


These days, even wikipedia has detailed instructions in one of their chemistry articles. I was reading it last night.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chemical_s ... e_peroxide

Quote:
The main question shoud be why haven't airlines protected themselves against the possible use of them long ago?


http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/43998.pdf
Operational issues for trace detection include the impact of increased screening time, the consequences of erroneous and innocuous detections, the ability to detect novel explosives, and the potential for intentional disruption of the screening process.


True, the number of explosives and the various configurations makes accurate detection virtually impossible without slowing the travel process to the point of making buses the more rapid form of transportation. Even the standard explosives can by pass the detection process if handled correctly. If you seal something like C4 into an airtight container change clothes/shower and clean the exterior of the container before giving that container to the person who will actually carry it the probability of any detectable level of explosive residue is minimal. There are several groups who are trying to develop new and better technologies to try to improve this situation, but the reality is that there will always be a means to circumvent the detection.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:29 pm 
Wayne Stollings wrote:
X-Black wrote:
hunter88 wrote:
I am keeping an open mind until we see some hard evidence.


Quote:
About what?


About the latest arrests. The police arrested a couple of young Muslims last month, they shot one of them and they were innocent. The police also shot a Brazilian man nine times in the head, he was innocent.


Which has no bearing on the cases in discussion as the process of arrest or apprehension is limited to split second decisions and not the presentation of evidence.


It has everything to do with this case. We are faced with events that were triggered by arrests in Pakistan, arrests that had not connection to this case at all. While investigating the Pakistan police uncovered some intelligence that suggested an attack was imminent.

The UK security forces have had these people under investigation for months just like all the others that they have arrested over the years. When the security forces are making mistakes arresting and shooting innocent people then it has everything to do with this!

These people will be held without access to a lawyer or anyone except the security forces for upto 3 months. Because they have said that others are at large they have the right to interrogate these people in ways that are otherwise illegal and very much a breach of their human rights! Sleep deprivation is one technique that is now open to them.

In England we are proud of our mix race communities and we should protect ALL our citizens and not allow Muslims to be a scape goat just because of a minority. We do not want to fall into the paranoid trip that America has because it is dangerous.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:01 pm 
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X-Black wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
X-Black wrote:
hunter88 wrote:
I am keeping an open mind until we see some hard evidence.


Quote:
About what?


About the latest arrests. The police arrested a couple of young Muslims last month, they shot one of them and they were innocent. The police also shot a Brazilian man nine times in the head, he was innocent.


Which has no bearing on the cases in discussion as the process of arrest or apprehension is limited to split second decisions and not the presentation of evidence.


It has everything to do with this case. We are faced with events that were triggered by arrests in Pakistan, arrests that had not connection to this case at all. While investigating the Pakistan police uncovered some intelligence that suggested an attack was imminent.


Earth to X-Black!!! Unless these two cases, which I have highlighted, are directly connected to the case being discussed they have no bearing. So, if you are saying these two sets of shootings were a cause there is a connection. If they are not a cause they are not connected. :roll:

Quote:
The UK security forces have had these people under investigation for months just like all the others that they have arrested over the years. When the security forces are making mistakes arresting and shooting innocent people then it has everything to do with this!


I think you had better give some references to your claims as this is beginning to sound like a 'jug' explanation to me. Give the particulars of the cases and we will see how well your interpretation matches reality.

Quote:
These people will be held without access to a lawyer or anyone except the security forces for upto 3 months.


Which is connected to the original statement in what way?

Quote:
Because they have said that others are at large they have the right to interrogate these people in ways that are otherwise illegal and very much a breach of their human rights! Sleep deprivation is one technique that is now open to them.


Again, this appears to be some tangent you are trying to include based on your own agenda.

Quote:
In England we are proud of our mix race communities and we should protect ALL our citizens and not allow Muslims to be a scape goat just because of a minority. We do not want to fall into the paranoid trip that America has because it is dangerous.


Now, I know this is a tangent as the post stated "I am keeping an open mind until we see some hard evidence.", which would be in line with this thought and to which you seem to disagree.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:02 pm 
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Quote:
It has everything to do with this case. We are faced with events that were triggered by arrests in Pakistan, arrests that had not connection to this case at all. While investigating the Pakistan police uncovered some intelligence that suggested an attack was imminent.

The UK security forces have had these people under investigation for months just like all the others that they have arrested over the years. When the security forces are making mistakes arresting and shooting innocent people then it has everything to do with this!

These people will be held without access to a lawyer or anyone except the security forces for upto 3 months. Because they have said that others are at large they have the right to interrogate these people in ways that are otherwise illegal and very much a breach of their human rights! Sleep deprivation is one technique that is now open to them.

In England we are proud of our mix race communities and we should protect ALL our citizens and not allow Muslims to be a scape goat just because of a minority. We do not want to fall into the paranoid trip that America has because it is dangerous

it says here up to 28 days....that should be enough time to come up
with conclusive evidence to any ties to the plot.

British police on Friday released one of the 24 people originally arrested. No charges have been filed yet against the others. Under tough new anti-terrorism laws, authorities can hold suspects up to 28 days without charge, but pressure is likely to mount for police to disclose at least some of the evidence.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060812/ap_ ... NlYwNmYw--

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:34 pm 
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Denni you are right on the 28 day rule. It is interesting that those of us in the US have a better handle on UK law then X balck, lol. Or maybe X black just thinks we can't figure this stuff out.

Then again it does seem like X black is sympathic to the accused terrorists. Similiar to the sympathy shown to Hezbollah.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:35 am 
denni50 wrote:
Quote:
It has everything to do with this case. We are faced with events that were triggered by arrests in Pakistan, arrests that had not connection to this case at all. While investigating the Pakistan police uncovered some intelligence that suggested an attack was imminent.

The UK security forces have had these people under investigation for months just like all the others that they have arrested over the years. When the security forces are making mistakes arresting and shooting innocent people then it has everything to do with this!

These people will be held without access to a lawyer or anyone except the security forces for upto 3 months. Because they have said that others are at large they have the right to interrogate these people in ways that are otherwise illegal and very much a breach of their human rights! Sleep deprivation is one technique that is now open to them.

In England we are proud of our mix race communities and we should protect ALL our citizens and not allow Muslims to be a scape goat just because of a minority. We do not want to fall into the paranoid trip that America has because it is dangerous

it says here up to 28 days....that should be enough time to come up
with conclusive evidence to any ties to the plot.

British police on Friday released one of the 24 people originally arrested. No charges have been filed yet against the others. Under tough new anti-terrorism laws, authorities can hold suspects up to 28 days without charge, but pressure is likely to mount for police to disclose at least some of the evidence.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060812/ap_ ... NlYwNmYw--


Yes you are correct the government are pushing for 3 months. These men could be released under house arrested also even without a charge indefiently. Part of this would be the banning of a phone or use of the internet.

Lawas like this are open to abuse.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:50 am 
Wayne Stollings wrote:
X-Black wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
X-Black wrote:
hunter88 wrote:
I am keeping an open mind until we see some hard evidence.


Quote:
About what?


About the latest arrests. The police arrested a couple of young Muslims last month, they shot one of them and they were innocent. The police also shot a Brazilian man nine times in the head, he was innocent.


Which has no bearing on the cases in discussion as the process of arrest or apprehension is limited to split second decisions and not the presentation of evidence.


It has everything to do with this case. We are faced with events that were triggered by arrests in Pakistan, arrests that had not connection to this case at all. While investigating the Pakistan police uncovered some intelligence that suggested an attack was imminent.


Earth to X-Black!!! Unless these two cases, which I have highlighted, are directly connected to the case being discussed they have no bearing. So, if you are saying these two sets of shootings were a cause there is a connection. If they are not a cause they are not connected. :roll:
.


What are you going on about? If the anti-terrorist branch are often making mistakes it has everything to do with this case. The case is only connected in the fact that the anti-terrorist branch are going all the work!

Mork calling Orsan :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:53 am 
Wayne Stollings wrote:

I think you had better give some references to your claims as this is beginning to sound like a 'jug' explanation to me. Give the particulars of the cases and we will see how well your interpretation matches reality.


A decision was made to move suddenly following months of surveillance.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/sto ... 40,00.html

The counter-terrorism operation took several months to complete. Scotland Yard say twenty-three people are in custody, and they were arrested in north and east London, Birmingham and High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. An undercover British agent infiltrated the group, giving the authorities intelligence on the alleged plan, several U.S. government officials said.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Police_in_B ... orist_plot

Anti-terrorist police shot a man today during a dawn raid on a suspected chemical bomb factory in East London today.

The 23-year-old was hit by a bullet in the shoulder as armed officers descended on a family terraced house in east London in the early hours


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 22,00.html

:lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:59 am 
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Quote:
Anti-terrorist police shot a man today during a dawn raid on a suspected chemical bomb factory in East London today.

The 23-year-old was hit by a bullet in the shoulder as armed officers descended on a family terraced house in east London in the early hours

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 22,00.html



If guilty then it looks like some good police work. It seems he was only shot in the shoulder so he should be fine by the time his trial starts.

Quote:
One friend said: "If you were making a bomb factory would you do it in the same house as your mother?. He was not armed. He’s not a terrorist. He is an innocent man and he didn’t deserve to get shot.


Making a bomb in the same house where his mother lives. I'm sure he wouldn't be doing that. I mean it's not like he was hiding rockets or bombs in a church, or a hospital, or a school, or someone's home. Only terrorists do things like that. Oh wait, he's being charged with terrorism.



Quote:
After the September 11 attacks the older brother started taking his religion more seriously, grew a beard and started praying five times a day, he said.

"When we were younger he was no angel. But he changed, we all just grew up. He chose to go on the right path. He prayed five times a day, he went to the gym every day and other than that he stayed at home.


Would that be the right path, or the path that leads one to want to kill all those that do not believe as they do. It is nice to see he wasn't out roaming the streets, but stayed home a lot. Gee I wonder what he was doing there all that time. Oh that's right they are accused of building a chemical bomb in their home.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:52 am 
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X-Black wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:

I think you had better give some references to your claims as this is beginning to sound like a 'jug' explanation to me. Give the particulars of the cases and we will see how well your interpretation matches reality.


A decision was made to move suddenly following months of surveillance.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/sto ... 40,00.html



Yes, the decision was made to act rather suddenly but then the timeline for the actual attack was coming to an end as well. Maybe they could have waited a while to see if this was a test run or an actual attack and their information was not completely accurate. That would have really been a mistake, IMO.

So if they waited a week or so to act, would there have been 10 or so fewer airliners in the world? :roll:

The plans could have been carried out in the next two days, a White House spokesman said today. He added that Tony Blair and George Bush had discussed the plot on Sunday and Wednesday.


Quote:
The counter-terrorism operation took several months to complete. Scotland Yard say twenty-three people are in custody, and they were arrested in north and east London, Birmingham and High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. An undercover British agent infiltrated the group, giving the authorities intelligence on the alleged plan, several U.S. government officials said.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Police_in_B ... orist_plot


Hey, no confirmation on whether the suspects were British citizens and the references to the detonator for the explosives seem to contradict your prior claims ... I wonder, does crow taste like chicken?

Anti-terrorist police shot a man today during a dawn raid on a suspected chemical bomb factory in East London today.

Quote:
The 23-year-old was hit by a bullet in the shoulder as armed officers descended on a family terraced house in east London in the early hours

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 22,00.html


What was the connection to this case other than it is a suspected chemical bomb maker shot while being arrested? There has been no trial and no information on why he was shot or what was found in the house. It appears you have made a lot of assumptions with no information if this is supposed to prove anything connected to the airline attack case.

Quote:
:lol:


I would have to laugh at your attempt as well. It is good you can laugh at your self but better if you can stop making such a fool of yourself.

Exactly where did these referenced relate to this post other than your assumption that everyone is "innocent" and never a threat during the arrest process? You claim they were innocent but no information on the circumstances surrounding the incidents. An Innocent person can act in a threatening manner just as can a guilty person. The key is what the arresting officers were facing and how long they had to make that 'life or death' decision they made.

Quote:
About the latest arrests. The police arrested a couple of young Muslims last month, they shot one of them and they were innocent. The police also shot a Brazilian man nine times in the head, he was innocent

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:23 am 
hunter88 wrote:
Quote:
Anti-terrorist police shot a man today during a dawn raid on a suspected chemical bomb factory in East London today.

The 23-year-old was hit by a bullet in the shoulder as armed officers descended on a family terraced house in east London in the early hours

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 22,00.html



If guilty then it looks like some good police work. It seems he was only shot in the shoulder so he should be fine by the time his trial starts.

Quote:
One friend said: "If you were making a bomb factory would you do it in the same house as your mother?. He was not armed. He’s not a terrorist. He is an innocent man and he didn’t deserve to get shot.


Making a bomb in the same house where his mother lives. I'm sure he wouldn't be doing that. I mean it's not like he was hiding rockets or bombs in a church, or a hospital, or a school, or someone's home. Only terrorists do things like that. Oh wait, he's being charged with terrorism.



Quote:
After the September 11 attacks the older brother started taking his religion more seriously, grew a beard and started praying five times a day, he said.

"When we were younger he was no angel. But he changed, we all just grew up. He chose to go on the right path. He prayed five times a day, he went to the gym every day and other than that he stayed at home.


Would that be the right path, or the path that leads one to want to kill all those that do not believe as they do. It is nice to see he wasn't out roaming the streets, but stayed home a lot. Gee I wonder what he was doing there all that time. Oh that's right they are accused of building a chemical bomb in their home.


Many in Britain's Muslim community are deeply distrustful of the police following high-profile blunders in the past, including the killing of a man mistaken for a suicide bomber and the shooting of another man in a raid that resulted in no charges.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/ ... TE=DEFAULT

They were innocent.

And 5 people out of all them arrested in connection with the latest threat have been let out without charge.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:59 am 
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Quote:
And 5 people out of all them arrested in connection with the latest threat have been let out without charge.


Then I don't understand the complaint. It seems the system works, and only those found guilty are kept in jail, while those found to be innocent are released.

It seems your problem is you want them to be 100% sure they are guilty before they are picked up. But it's the courts duty to find them guilty or innocent, not the police. The police's duty is to protect the public, which it seems they are doing.

Do innocent people sometime get hurt or even killed? Sure just look at all the innocent people that died in your bombing last July.

Take the guy from Brazil they shot right after the 7/7 bombings. He had a backpack and ran from police. Was he a terrorist, no. But I do believe he was in the country illegally, and because he did not speak the language he did not understand what the police wanted. Of course if he wouldn't have been in the country illegally he might not have ran, but then we can't blame the police for that too.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:01 am 
Wayne Stollings wrote:
X-Black wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:

I think you had better give some references to your claims as this is beginning to sound like a 'jug' explanation to me. Give the particulars of the cases and we will see how well your interpretation matches reality.


A decision was made to move suddenly following months of surveillance.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/sto ... 40,00.html



Yes, the decision was made to act rather suddenly but then the timeline for the actual attack was coming to an end as well. Maybe they could have waited a while to see if this was a test run or an actual attack and their information was not completely accurate. That would have really been a mistake, IMO.

So if they waited a week or so to act, would there have been 10 or so fewer airliners in the world? :roll:

The plans could have been carried out in the next two days, a White House spokesman said today. He added that Tony Blair and George Bush had discussed the plot on Sunday and Wednesday.


Quote:
The UK security forces have had these people under investigation for months just like all the others that they have arrested over the years. When the security forces are making mistakes arresting and shooting innocent people then it has everything to do with this!


I think you had better give some references to your claims as this is beginning to sound like a 'jug' explanation to me. Give the particulars of the cases and we will see how well your interpretation matches reality.


So as you can see the links were provided to show the police had these people under close servailence and have for months, the security forces knew all about the plot and the only thing that change was a phone call from Pakistan after the arrest - not connected - of a British Muslim who's brothers are part of this investigation.

It was this call from Pakistan that urged the attack to go ahead after the arrests of one of the main players in Pakistan, obviously hoping they could go ahead with the attack before it was uncovered and not knowing the police in the UK knew all about it.

If it is a link to the innocent Muslim man who was shot you want then see below. I am sure we all have read the news about the Brazilian man who was shot in the tube, 9 times in the head while he was held down by the way.

http://feeds.thelondonnews.net/?rid=1e0 ... 33ee08&f=1

The reference to the electronic timing device came out of the USA homeland security spokes person and a couple of news papers quoted him. On British TV was an hour news update with a home office spokesperson and security adviser interviewed. They main concern in this development was the fact they didn't plan to use electronic devices to detonate the bombs. Instead they planned to smuggle chemicals onboard in plastic pop bottles and mix the cocktail onboard. We shall see in the coming weeks what was planned. At the moment the news is not very interested in the latest events and public opinion in the UK is of distrust of the situation.

The police didn't need to go in at this point and I would have thought it better to tighten the ring around them and wait for them to move.

As for the "jug" explanation well you haven't the full facts on that either.


Last edited by X-Black on Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:09 am 
hunter88 wrote:
Quote:
And 5 people out of all them arrested in connection with the latest threat have been let out without charge.


Then I don't understand the complaint. It seems the system works, and only those found guilty are kept in jail, while those found to be innocent are released.

It seems your problem is you want them to be 100% sure they are guilty before they are picked up. But it's the courts duty to find them guilty or innocent, not the police. The police's duty is to protect the public, which it seems they are doing.

Do innocent people sometime get hurt or even killed? Sure just look at all the innocent people that died in your bombing last July.

Take the guy from Brazil they shot right after the 7/7 bombings. He had a backpack and ran from police. Was he a terrorist, no. But I do believe he was in the country illegally, and because he did not speak the language he did not understand what the police wanted. Of course if he wouldn't have been in the country illegally he might not have ran, but then we can't blame the police for that too.


No the man from Brazil didn't run from the police nor did he have a large bubble jacket on he was also shot 9 times in the head after he was "arrested" and restrained. This is all common information that came out of the government inquiry. He was shot 9 times in the face, he was sat down and the security force officer held him down on the seat while another shot him from over the others shoulder at point blank range. It was an execution.

When we are faced with these sort of situations we need to make sure we have the right people. When the security forces have you in their sight anything can happen and people die. Yes they need to make sure 99.99% that they have it right. Mistakes do happen but they are far too common.


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