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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:37 pm 
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And to think people who go to the beach don't take the "Shuffle feet" signs seriously.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Origam wrote:
And to think people who go to the beach don't take the "Shuffle feet" signs seriously.


I take them seriously enough to stay out of the water.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:55 am 
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I believe Steve Irwin pulled out that barb due to the extreme pain.

...."Like virtually every beachgoer unlucky enough to step on a stingray, Bill Johnston suffered intense pain after a ray's barb jabbed him in the ankle at Honeymoon Island last month.....
One morning, almost four weeks after he was stung, blood suddenly gushed from the puncture wound on his left ankle because of complications from his sting. Emergency surgery stopped Johnston's bleeding, but he bled extensively. "I was more kind of shocked and surprised that this was happening and that there was so much (blood) so quickly," said Johnston, 61, a retired commercial property manager who lives in Palm Harbor. "I knew that if I lost enough blood I could go into shock. I knew I had to do something quick."

Doctors are not sure what caused Johnston's hemorrhage. At first, Dr. David Berry, the Mease Countryside Hospital surgeon who performed the emergency surgery to stop the bleeding, suspected that the stingray's toxin lingered in Johnston's foot or the sting caused an infection that "ate away at the tissue until it ate through the artery."

Johnston's unusual stingray experience began Aug. 1 when he was walking on rocks in waist-deep water at Honeymoon Island. He knew immediately what had happened, especially since he had been stung by a stingray two weeks before. "I've never been stung before but then I get stung twice in two weeks," Johnston said. "Within seconds, I felt the pain come on. It was excruciating. It doubles you up."

http://www.sptimes.com/News/091800/news ... in__.shtml


Another..

"Hi there,

I was very interested in your article about sting ray stings, as I had the misfortune 2 years ago to be "hit by one of these fellows in the right foot. The stinger went through rubber boots (waders) and when I pulled the waders off, the stinger had pulled my thick white sock through the hole in the waders. The injury has taken 12 months to heal and really to this day I can still feel a sting when I talk about it!

The injury was so severe. The pain was unbelievable! It really was! Thank god it was me and not one of my children, I just would have not known how painful it was.

I am a butcher by trade and have been cut/stabbed/sliced and have been stitched by every doctor in Melbourne, so I am quite brave when it come to the pain threshold, but this was something I have never or want to encounter again .

The hot water worked really good, but you have to be careful, the pain takes over all the other senses, I couldn't even feel the doctors injections and he gave me heaps of "peth". 30 minutes later I stopped yelling *phew*.

But the second worse thing happened for a best part of the week was I was fainting about 10 times a day. The hospital put it down to Marine toxins in my system. The covering of the Stinger is like a slimy velvet (black) and is also pushed into the wound causing mass infection. This MUST be removed ( painfully) I might add.

I just thought that I would share my first hand experience with you. Keep up the good work!

Regards Colin Palmer."

Lost that link.


Last edited by Grace on Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:16 am 
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I don't think the outcome would have been any different if he had left the stinger in. The venom surely would've stopped his heart and the resulting tissue damage would have destroyed his heart.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:26 am 
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SiberD wrote:
I don't think the outcome would have been any different if he had left the stinger in. The venom surely would've stopped his heart and the resulting tissue damage would have destroyed his heart.



The toxin isn't deadly. Being stabbed in the heart (if it did hit that organ) and the massive bleeding would have definitely killed him. I'm really not sure the toxin causes tissue necrosis. The link I posted refuted that I believe.

~ Dr. Grace


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:27 am 
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Here it is from link above:

But Carl Luer, a senior scientist at Mote Marine Laboratory in Sarasota, said it is highly unlikely that the stingray's toxin ruptured Johnston's artery 27 days after he was stung. The toxin, he said, is a protein that breaks down by itself in 24 to 48 hours.

"I'm 99 percent sure it is not the toxin," Luer said. "Nothing we know about the toxin would lead me to believe that it would stay in the system for that long."


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:40 am 
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Grace wrote:
SiberD wrote:
I don't think the outcome would have been any different if he had left the stinger in. The venom surely would've stopped his heart and the resulting tissue damage would have destroyed his heart.



The toxin isn't deadly. Being stabbed in the heart (if it did hit that organ) and the massive bleeding would have definitely killed him. I'm really not sure the toxin causes tissue necrosis. The link I posted refuted that I believe.

~ Dr. Grace



Abstract: A fatality occurred in a previously healthy 12-year-old boy after a penetrating chest injury from a stingray barb. The injury occurred under freak circumstances. Death was a result of cardiac tamponade which was secondary to venom-induced, localized myocardial necrosis and spontaneous perforation, six days after the direct penetration of the right ventricle by the barb. Three other cases of less serious stingray envenomation are described which illustrate the significant localized morbidity that may occur without immediate wound exploration and toilet after adequate anaesthesia. We also report a study of a series of 100 minor stingray envenomations which, when treated, resulted in no morbidity. It is possible that local infiltration with 1% plain lignocaine may have a direct counteraction against stingray venom that remains in the wound area. Stingray venom has insidious, but powerful, localized tissue necrosing properties in humans.



http://homepage.mac.com/mollet/Ref/Stinger.html

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:50 am 
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SiberD wrote:
Grace wrote:
SiberD wrote:
I don't think the outcome would have been any different if he had left the stinger in. The venom surely would've stopped his heart and the resulting tissue damage would have destroyed his heart.



The toxin isn't deadly. Being stabbed in the heart (if it did hit that organ) and the massive bleeding would have definitely killed him. I'm really not sure the toxin causes tissue necrosis. The link I posted refuted that I believe.

~ Dr. Grace



Abstract: A fatality occurred in a previously healthy 12-year-old boy after a penetrating chest injury from a stingray barb. The injury occurred under freak circumstances. Death was a result of cardiac tamponade which was secondary to venom-induced, localized myocardial necrosis and spontaneous perforation, six days after the direct penetration of the right ventricle by the barb. Three other cases of less serious stingray envenomation are described which illustrate the significant localized morbidity that may occur without immediate wound exploration and toilet after adequate anaesthesia. We also report a study of a series of 100 minor stingray envenomations which, when treated, resulted in no morbidity. It is possible that local infiltration with 1% plain lignocaine may have a direct counteraction against stingray venom that remains in the wound area. Stingray venom has insidious, but powerful, localized tissue necrosing properties in humans.



http://homepage.mac.com/mollet/Ref/Stinger.html


Wow. Good article. Good research. Back to reading it..


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:52 am 
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* The stinger apparatus then injects a protein-based toxin into the wound, causing immediate intense (even excruciating) pain in the victim. Injury may occur without envenomation because many stingrays lose or tear the integumentary sheath covering the venom glands.

Physical: Physical:

* The wound may bleed freely and the patient may have systemic symptoms, including the following:

o Syncope

o Nausea

o Vomiting

o Diarrhea

o Diaphoresis

o Muscle cramps

o Fasciculations

o Abdominal pain

o Seizures

o Hypotension

From link above.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:54 am 
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But again SD, to support my claim about necrosis (and the 12 year old who died 6 days after the sting) from your link above:

"Very little has been written about the toxin left in wounds after a stingray injury. It is known that the stingray toxin is a protein and is very sensitive to heat. The patient should obtain very rapid symptomatic improvement with heat as the poison denatures and becomes neutralized. Some thought exists that the protein does not truly denature but that some sort of gateway effect occurs on the nerve conduction. Whatever the truth is regarding how heat works, it is a rapid, effective treatment to reduce pain almost instantaneously."


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:33 am 
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Grace wrote:
But again SD, to support my claim about necrosis (and the 12 year old who died 6 days after the sting) from your link above:

"Very little has been written about the toxin left in wounds after a stingray injury. It is known that the stingray toxin is a protein and is very sensitive to heat. The patient should obtain very rapid symptomatic improvement with heat as the poison denatures and becomes neutralized. Some thought exists that the protein does not truly denature but that some sort of gateway effect occurs on the nerve conduction. Whatever the truth is regarding how heat works, it is a rapid, effective treatment to reduce pain almost instantaneously."


How does that support your claim? Necrosis can occur during the 24 to 48 hours that the toxin is active. The protein breaks down the surrounding tissue even though it is short lived. Apparently it can be broken down and neutralized with heat. I do believe the recommendation for neutralizing with heat is for stings to the extremities like the feet or legs. So what you gonna do, soak his heart in hot water for 30 minutes? As if that wouldn't have killed him too!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:43 am 
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All of that is irrelevant anyway. They are now saying that he did not pull the barb from his chest, and that his death was almost instantaneous.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:05 pm 
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Archer wrote:
All of that is irrelevant anyway. They are now saying that he did not pull the barb from his chest, and that his death was almost instantaneous.


Who? Where?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:08 pm 
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Dated yesterday:

Crewmembers say he was barely conscious in the minutes after the sting and died as his production team rushed him to his vessel, Croc One, and to a nearby island for emergency treatment.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 01,00.html


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:08 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
The protein breaks down the surrounding tissue even though it is short lived. Apparently it can be broken down and neutralized with heat. I do believe the recommendation for neutralizing with heat is for stings to the extremities like the feet or legs.


Very ill advised treatment. Submersing ANY part of your body(especially an injured limb) in hot water will increase pulse rate and blood pressure,which both will be elevated due to the shock and pain of the injury,thus allowing the venom to further spread throughout the body at a faster pace.

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