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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:53 am 
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Hi, Sodidum.
No, I've never been a farmer. But I am from Iowa, which is the next best thing(Lol)

The story(s) around this make-believe colony were a passion of mine some years ago; I've kind of got side-tracked. But....the fires not out. I just need to find a plot line to really get into.

Hope this thread can help you.


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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:40 am 
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Iowanic wrote:
No, I've never been a farmer.

And i too, but i have interest in some questions from farming. I've read earlier:
Iowanic wrote:
... glass of goat's milk a day-that's 7 a week.(My math is improving, isn't it?)

For example, how much territory is needed of a meadow for one goat?
How much milk she can produce in month?


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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:56 pm 
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solidum wrote:
Iowanic wrote:
No, I've never been a farmer.

And i too, but i have interest in some questions from farming. I've read earlier:
Iowanic wrote:
... glass of goat's milk a day-that's 7 a week.(My math is improving, isn't it?)

For example, how much territory is needed of a meadow for one goat?
How much milk she can produce in month?


There are a lot of variables for how much pasture and how much milk will be produced, depending on the breed of goats, but on average these sites will give you some ideas.

https://www.weedemandreap.com/how-much- ... ise-goats/

https://countrysidenetwork.com/daily/li ... -for-milk/

https://www.hobbyfarms.com/raising-dair ... or-milk-2/

Some of the local people here raise goats and "rent" them for clearing land especially where Kudzu and wild grapes are a problem for the land owner. They milk the goats and make cheese from the milk. When the goats are to be considered "surplus" they sell them to the local Hispanic community for meat.

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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
There are a lot of variables ...

Thank you. Of course, first I plan to conduct an experiment this "summer" to find out how much grass I can collect from one square meter of my area for the whole season. My climate zone is different from yours, grass growth usually continues from May to September.

Wayne Stollings wrote:
Some of the local people here raise goats and "rent" them for clearing land ...

I thought about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:15 pm 
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solidum wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
There are a lot of variables ...

Thank you. Of course, first I plan to conduct an experiment this "summer" to find out how much grass I can collect from one square meter of my area for the whole season. My climate zone is different from yours, grass growth usually continues from May to September.


Goats also seem to be drawn to more mixed growth flora than just grass unlike say cattle or horses, which is why they do so well at clearing land. Goats are also very adept at climbing, jumping, and escaping from enclosures.

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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Some of the local people here raise goats and "rent" them for clearing land ...

I thought about it.


My son and I were just discussing this for his new property. He has about 8 to 10 acres that could use clearing. If he gets a few goats he can clean off his property and maybe then he would rent the goats to others or just sell them.

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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:20 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
... He has about 8 to 10 acres that could use clearing. If he gets a few goats he can clean off his property and maybe then he would rent the goats to others or just sell them.

I think, a few goats will not be enough. In one link it was indicated that the minimal area for one goat is 250 sq. ft. 8-10 acres is about 350000-450000 sq. ft. If i convert correctly, it shows that maximum quantity of goats should be 1800! This is a very large number, maybe a deal with shepherd and his herd will be better.


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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:01 am 
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solidum wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
... He has about 8 to 10 acres that could use clearing. If he gets a few goats he can clean off his property and maybe then he would rent the goats to others or just sell them.

I think, a few goats will not be enough. In one link it was indicated that the minimal area for one goat is 250 sq. ft. 8-10 acres is about 350000-450000 sq. ft. If i convert correctly, it shows that maximum quantity of goats should be 1800! This is a very large number, maybe a deal with shepherd and his herd will be better.


But the minimal area does not mean pasture, just what area is needed for "comfortable" living, which would include the goat preferred hay diet. A few goats will take some time to clear off the land and if desired can be easily sustained by pasture rotation and sold if not. Also, the larger herd will be harder to isolate at night to protect them from coyotes, which are known to be in the area.

There was an article on TV last night about a goat farm which was taking in Christmas trees to feed their goats. The needles are a popular food and the rest is chipped for mulch to be used on the farm. They had about 200 goats and 300 Christmas trees.

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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:44 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
But the minimal area does not mean pasture ...

What is your opinion, how many goats are needed to clear 8 acres?

Wayne Stollings wrote:
... the larger herd will be harder to isolate at night to protect them from coyotes ...

This is a problem for several goats too. I have not seen coyotes in my region and do not know their abilities. Can a only fence protect a herd?

Wayne Stollings wrote:
... Christmas trees to feed their goats.

What will be the taste of milk after feeding the goats on this diet?


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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:24 am 
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solidum wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
But the minimal area does not mean pasture ...

What is your opinion, how many goats are needed to clear 8 acres?


In theory one goat will eventually clear the land. The variable is time and investment in goats. The more you invest in goats the less time it will take. Once the house is complete the plan is to look at available finances and see what to prioritize the additions from there.

Quote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
... the larger herd will be harder to isolate at night to protect them from coyotes ...

This is a problem for several goats too. I have not seen coyotes in my region and do not know their abilities. Can a only fence protect a herd?


A fence that will keep goats in will definitely keep coyote out, but if the goats get out they may quickly become a meal. Goats are notorious escape artists so that is probably more of a concern. My son has a large dog to assist in warning and there is a large population of deer for the coyote, but as in the case of predators the livestock is much easier to catch than wild game and once that is learned there will be more problems.

Quote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
... Christmas trees to feed their goats.

What will be the taste of milk after feeding the goats on this diet?


I do not know. Most places here turn the milk into cheese and much of that is flavored as well. I suspect the added flavors would hide any tastes added from the tree needles, but some people like the taste of a gin martini and that tastes like a pine tree to me.

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“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:32 am 
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With the exception of using poison, the night pen, guard animal, and lethal controls when needed are the most probable courses for us. I believe some of the goat farmers have also used alpacas (also for making yarn), donkeys and llama as guard animals instead of dogs.

https://articles.extension.org/pages/27 ... or-control

There are three basic methods of predator control, or a combination of these methods, that have proven effective: guard animals, special fencing and lethal methods of control. Each has its advantages and drawbacks, but they work best in combination. Most goat producers will find that using a guard animal along with good fences will be enough to keep losses under control. Additional details are provided in the following articles. Contact the local extension office to get information for specific needs.

Some implementation of lethal control will be needed at times and in special cases but should be kept to a minimum. This method may include trapping, poisons and hunting. As states may have restrictions on lethal control, it is best to work with law enforcement and/or game and wildlife officials before utilizing this option.

Other producers find that good fencing with night pens, along with lethal controls, works best for them. It is important to look at your situation and make sure the solution fits your farm and location. Again, you must follow the law when utilizing any lethal method of control, so be sure to check before you start.

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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:14 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
In theory one goat will eventually clear the land. The variable is time and investment in goats ...

Grass grows at a certain rate, and goats eat grass at a certain rate, this is the equation, and if the rate of eating is less than the growth rate, the estimated time for cleaning will be infinite.

Wayne Stollings wrote:
A fence that will keep goats in will definitely keep coyote out ...

I read the information on your links, but I did not fully understand the situation with digging under the fence. The electric current can harm my animals and my neighbors, it looks dangerous, and what happens if the circuit grounds accidentally? Some predators can dig very deep, many steel grids can corrode. Using stainless steel for underground fencing is not cheap. I have seen cheap fiberglass mesh, can this be used?


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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:35 pm 
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solidum wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
In theory one goat will eventually clear the land. The variable is time and investment in goats ...

Grass grows at a certain rate, and goats eat grass at a certain rate, this is the equation, and if the rate of eating is less than the growth rate, the estimated time for cleaning will be infinite.


The clearance of the land is not grazing grass, but eating the brushy growth down to where it can be more easily managed. Goats are more fond of a variable diet than just grass. It is the brushy growth which is the target. Later if he decides to keep the goats it would be more grass pasture, but something like a cow or sheep will do the job on grass pasture and does not do the job on brush like goats.

Quote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
A fence that will keep goats in will definitely keep coyote out ...

I read the information on your links, but I did not fully understand the situation with digging under the fence. The electric current can harm my animals and my neighbors, it looks dangerous, and what happens if the circuit grounds accidentally?


The shock is variable and can be adjusted for smaller animals. It is more of a surprise than a harm if set for smaller animals. When we raised cattle back when I lived at home, a single strand of electric fence was used inside a fence line to contain them in the pasture. Goats, on the other hand, are recommended to have no less than six strands of wire spaced closely enough they cannot get their head between the strands.

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Some predators can dig very deep, many steel grids can corrode. Using stainless steel for underground fencing is not cheap. I have seen cheap fiberglass mesh, can this be used?


That I do not know. The goats are still in a planning stage and some of those options are still being researched ourselves. For hogs, cattle, horses, chickens, and even some sheep have first hand information from a few decades back and second hand information for more recent experience, but not for goats ...yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:12 am 
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Are you not tired of me?

Wayne Stollings wrote:
... For hogs, cattle, horses, chickens, and even some sheep have first hand information from a few decades back and second hand information for more recent experience, but not for goats ...yet.

I wish you success in breeding goats.


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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:24 am 
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solidum wrote:
Are you not tired of me?


No, you asked some interesting questions and made some interesting observations, some we had asked ourselves and some new.

Quote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
... For hogs, cattle, horses, chickens, and even some sheep have first hand information from a few decades back and second hand information for more recent experience, but not for goats ...yet.

I wish you success in breeding goats.


Thanks, he may try breeding ducks as well, which is another new addition. He has already moved his bee hives to the property, but the chickens went to friends who also raise hogs. They provide the suckling pig for the annual pig roast on a spit my son built just for the occasion. With the acreage he has I expect he may have other livestock before it is all done. The land is not as large as the farm I bought in the adjoining state, but the hours of travel to and from limited the use after he decided not to proceed with his tree farm. He has moved half of the greenhouse to the new farm for later assembly since he is not planning on growing trees commercially now that he has gotten into blacksmithing. He has one of his pieces on permanent exhibit at the state museum of natural history now so he has some great opportunities in that regard.

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“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
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 Post subject: Re: Over-herd
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:11 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
... he may try breeding ducks as well, which is another new addition ...

Why does he prefer ducks over chickens?

Wayne Stollings wrote:
The land is not as large as the farm I bought in the adjoining state ...

What is your opinion, how much space is needed for self-support in your region? Where is the "line" that differ the farm game from the real work?

Wayne Stollings wrote:
... since he is not planning on growing trees commercially now that he has gotten into blacksmithing ...

Did he want to grow trees for lumber?

My first job after the institute was at the plant in the heat treatment hall. Most of the machine parts were from the forge. Two years later i moved to the machine shop and worked as a programmer of CNC machines. I respect people who work with their hands. Sometimes i watch YouTube, and I'm happy when i watch channels like “luckygen1001” or “MyFordBoy”.


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