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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:38 pm 
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I think it only seems like horses eat more because they have to continuously eat small portions, and don't stop to lounge around and eat their cud. Mature horses consume about 2.5 to 3.0% of their body weight in feed each day. A mature 1000 lb horse will eat about 25 to 30 pounds of feed each day.
http://www.merricks.com/digestion.html

Not much different from cattle:
http://beef.unl.edu/stories/200608210.shtml

Cool TV show jhawk

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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:28 pm 
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More useful info. Thanx.


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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:42 pm 
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Now to figure how much manure is produced...


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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:27 am 
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Iowanic wrote:
Now to figure how much manure is produced...


that would be variabl on size and input I would imagine, but here are some figures.

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/578.html

The normal city horse produced between fifteen and thirty-five pounds of manure a day and about a quart of urine, usually distributed along the course of its route or deposited in the stable.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department ... /agdex7954

On average, an 1100 pound (500 kg) horse will produce 31 pounds (14 kg) of feces and 2 to 3 gallons (8-11 litres) of urine per day, plus bedding.

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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:56 am 
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On average, an 1100 pound (500 kg) horse will produce 31 pounds (14 kg) of feces and 2 to 3 gallons (8-11 litres) of urine per day, plus bedding.


That one might help prove my point. This site was for horses on pasture. And while I agree with Rural when you feed a horse you feed 2 1/2 to 3% body weight, or 25 to 30 pounds a day, I still feel a horse on pasture will eat more then needed. And that was the consideration for Iowanic.

Rural, you even said on good pasture you have to lock yours in at night or they get too fat. Iowanic's concern is getting the most from the limited supply of land.

Here if a horse on pasture will produce 31 pounds of manure a day, clearly he's eating more then 25 to 30 pounds a day. The 2 to 3 gallons of urine made sense because a horse can drink 10 gallons of water a day with no problem.

http://www.animalrangeextension.montana ... pacity.htm

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It’s important to recognize that grazing animals only need to eat 2.5 to 3% of their body weight each day. An 1100-pound horse will eat 27.5 pounds of air-dry forage (hay) a day, or 825 pounds per month.

Remember that horses damage or trample another 25% of the forage in a pasture, so we have to add 25%, making the total available forage requirement for an 1100-pound horse closer to 1000 pounds per month. Horses will eat more than needed if given continuous access to pasture grasses.

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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:05 am 
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Iowanic wrote:
Now to figure how much manure is produced...


Roughly the same mass as that consumed unless the animal is gaining or losing weight. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:47 am 
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Yaahh - I have a few that will eat more than they need. So you're right there. But if Iowanic's horses are working during the day that will make a difference. He also might need a sacrifice area where he can put them to limit their access to pasture.

And then horses produce more manure depending on how much of the feed they eat is waste, which is probably why the city horses on more concentrated feed are producing somewhat less manure. Manure weight though also contains water weight (about 63% moisture) and isn't just sold feed waste.
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/waste_mgt/smal ... Manure.pdf

Most of my horses are pretty good and only poop in one corner of their pasture so waste of pasture is minimal and limited to what they tromp on when they are running and playing

So now I guess Iowanic will have to decide what kind of horses he is going to get to suit his needs which will make a difference in how much land and maintenance he'll need to plan for. I'm gonna guess Iowanic that you're going to want a general utility type horse that can do some draft work like pulling and ploughing, but still be light and quick enough for transportation. You won't need a high maintenance 17-18 hh draft or jumper or a racehorse - but a stouter type small-medium sized horse like a Morgan, Canadian, Fjord - even some type of Quarter Horse :) - or maybe even a bigger pony. Most of the average working horses in the pioneer days in America were only about 14 hh (56 inches) and 800-900 lbs.

So right there you would need less land and less feed than for a larger horse and probably have to take your horses off the pasture part time if it is good grass and they aren't working. But you'll also hopefully have pasture to rotate and access to land to cut for winter forage unless you have a climate with year round fresh forage. Lush pasture, I'd say would be 1 to 1.5 acres per horse, more arid plains type sparser pasture could be up to 5 acres per horse. The better you can maintain and irrigate the land, the less land you will need too.

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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:03 pm 
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You correct on the type of horse I have in mind, Rural. I'm actually getting some working numbers now, but it's only regarding human usage; animals aren't figured in yet. It's definately a project!

A book I just recently started reading "Five acres and Independence" has much useful info. Johnnie mentioned it and as luck had it, my lady-friend had a copy.


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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:11 pm 
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So then if you are looking towards total sustainability then are you also considering using the horses as food at some point??


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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:48 pm 
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That's a good question. He'll have to consider how many he is taking, how many he will need for replenishment and growth and will not want to stick to the bare minimum in case one is injured or gets sick and dies. A horse takes almost one year to foal, usually only has one offspring at a time (or one surviving one) isn't really mature enough to do much work until at least three and the older trained ones are needed to teach the youngsters to work in harness.
A mare at the end of pregnancy and while nursing (about 5 -6 months) can't do much work so others will be needed to work in their place. A female shouldn't really be bred before three years old. He will also want to keep some genetic variety or the genetic well-being of the horses and the health of the herd would decrease from too much inbreeding.

One thing that might interest/help you out Iowanic is the history and numbers of horses imported to New France. Because they were the King's shipments, we know how many were shipped, arrived alive, their genders and approximate ages, and their increase in numbers from the importations of 1665 to 1671 through the next 25 years of comparative isolation from other colonists. 81 horses were imported over six years for a population of just under 3000 people and by 1698 there were 684 horses and 15, 355 people. The horses remained the property of the King and were 'leased" on strict arrangements.

They were not to be eaten, (at least not officially sanctioned) until 1709 under Raudot who thought the habitants were having too much fun with their horses and not working hard enough for the landowners. He tried by a series of ordinances to limit horse ownership to two horses plus one foal for each habitant family, and tried to designate the rest for slaughter, but the common people steadily refused to obey.

The ratio of approximately one horse for every 37 people, then one for every 22 people would increase to one horse for every 5 people in the colony.

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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:08 pm 
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Yeah, the keeping track of the math keeps me on my toes.

Ideally; the horses should be able to arrive on-planet and get to horse-work(Give or take, say, two weeks); you want that first crop in as fast as possible. But you'll need baby horses as quick as possible, too and that takes mommy horses 'off-line'. We'll need a goodly size herd; if we intend for them to do the heavy work in place of tractors. That means transport-space for their living quarters as well as horsie-chow.

At least we'll arrive with plently of ah.....'organic' fretilizer. Being a colonist could mean a pretty gamey trip!

I didn't see horse as a major food item, but if we need that many, it could be emergancy chow. Horses would be too valuable, except at dire straights, to be used as bar-b-q.


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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:22 pm 
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Quote:
Ideally; the horses should be able to arrive on-planet and get to horse-work(Give or take, say, two weeks); you want that first crop in as fast as possible. But you'll need baby horses as quick as possible, too and that takes mommy horses 'off-line'.


A horse would have no problem working right up to foaling. though yoiu may have to take it a bit easy the last month or so.

One thing to consider. A cow takes 9 months for a calf, a horse takes 11 months for a foal. As for eating the calf can be 1000 to 1200 pounds by 20 months, the horse, depending on the breed, probably won't make 1000 by the time he is 2.

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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:40 pm 
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Iowanic thought of something else you might want to throw into the mix when looking at horses or cows for use in the fields.

With a cow, you can milk her twice a day, give some to the calf, and use the rest. Not sure about drinking horse milk. Plus a foal doesn't do the best of a bottle twice a day the way a calf does. So you may end up having to leave the foal with the mother longer, which would take her out of field work, and that wouldn't be the case with the cow.

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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:47 pm 
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hunter88 wrote:
Iowanic thought of something else you might want to throw into the mix when looking at horses or cows for use in the fields.

With a cow, you can milk her twice a day, give some to the calf, and use the rest. Not sure about drinking horse milk. Plus a foal doesn't do the best of a bottle twice a day the way a calf does. So you may end up having to leave the foal with the mother longer, which would take her out of field work, and that wouldn't be the case with the cow.


And to be truly sustainable wouldn't you also have to eat your livestock once they were no longer useful?? Otherwise you are wasting resources feeding them and caring for them once they served their purpose, not to menton then wasting the animal as sustainance, furs, etc., just to let it become worm food. Isn't part of sustainability about not wasting anything and living off of what you have??


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 Post subject: Re: Garden info
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:11 pm 
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But advantages of a horse would be not taking as long to clear or plough or transport anything as for oxen -and I think horses generally have a longer serviceable life span -20 or so years - don't they?

Sustainability means "capable of being continued with minimal long-term effect on the environment." But I guess recycling is part of that -but then so would be caring and maintaining a working animal so that they would have the longest and healthiest working life possible. It wouldn't be sustainable to over-work and over-use them so that they break down young and were no longer serviceable.

PS hunter -they have horse milk dairies in Belgium but of course with horses they keep the foals, because unlike cows, mares stop producing milk if they lose their foal.
http://www.expatica.com/be/life_in/feat ... 13789.html

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