EnviroLink Forum

China stopped outside reporters during the worst of Tamamen square, did they not?

Surely, that wasn't because of zionist funding?

Since when were Chinese connected to jews?

The point I was making, the reporters being censered may have nothing whatsoever to do with zionists.

The zionists control the world you live in. They string the puppets we see as presidents, prime ministers etc. New president elect MWHAAAAAAAAA! Will continue the line as put forth his controllers.

Please tell me you're kidding, Mothy? PLEASE.

But they would not take kindly to the "other" side calling them "pawns" for they do not believe they are. They are in agreement with those who supply the weapons in order to carry out a common cause. To say they are pawns is to trivialize their own very legitimate protests against the history of Israel and the oppression of their people. This would include the hijacking of their land which they depended on for their own well-being,

The Palestinians believe they are the oppressed - and inspite of their militance and hard-lining - they are without doubt - oppressed. How can Israel, who has the military might and international support, cooperate with the Palestinians' welfare so that they may be less inclined to lob rockets into the country of Israel, a land that once belonged to them?

There is idiocy on both sides - especially when one side decides to inflict violence on the other and call it "justified". Ahem ---- can we at least acknowledge that there is NEVER a justification for such violence on the part of either while also recognizing the injustices and harms brought to both? How quickly we come to the conclusion of violence as a remedy or antidote to the very thing we THINK we want to quell. I wrote "think" in capitals because I truly wonder if we really do wish to end violence. Most people would probably describe themselves as non-violent in a situation which permits peaceful resolution. Thing is, most situations could be resolved without violence but the concept of peaceful resolution hasn't been experimented with and we really have no idea what could be achieved if we gave up our knee-jerk reaction of violence. 'Course, war creates an economy and pays for college, mortgages, ipods, and Disneyland too. Sorry bout the cynicism - but is this last statement not true? War really is part of the GNP/GNP. Ugly but true. And for the US to get involved now would be a big mistake! Step back and allow the EU or Japan or Canada - or any seemingly unbiased party to help broker.

What do the Palestinians hope to achieve in launching rockets into israel? I don't know Josh. Maybe they want international attention to their cause 'cus they haven't been getting it, historically. Maybe they're having a temper tantrum. They are 1.5 million in a very small space and those people have been denied, by Israel as well as the international 'community', of very basic standards of living which you and I take for granted. When there is injustice, anger prevails. Anger breeds so called terrorists. If we want more terrorists, we know how to go about getting more, right?

We need to give up taking sides and ...... I would say the time is upon us .... to realize that we are bombing ourselves and always have been.

I have to agree with alot of what Mothy and Animal friendly are saying here. There is alot of background and history that many in the West, especially the US, do not seem to appreciate...check out this website for an interesting look at it.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

some tidbits to look at is the disproportionate reporting...historically fewer Israilis have been killed but are reported far more often. And, how many times has the UN security council tried to order Israel to cease its actions against Palestinians , only to be vetoed by the US...

As for who broke the ceasefire? I read that Israel had done so at least twice (will look for links) prior to Hamas last week and, what about the ongoing blockade of Gaza that contravene's international law creating humanitarian crisis beyond the pale...

There is alot of information out there that the Mainstream media just does not provide, including CNN...

The problem is not just the news but most people have no idea what the cultures are like. Its easy to cop out and take the naive "can't we all just get along" route but its not realistic by any stretch. Hamas and other muslim fanatics raise their children to hate Jews and to think all Jews have to be killed. These are not the rare exceptions most people seem to think they are.

Israel is not blameless but for starters they don't purposely use women and children as shields, they don't purposely target civilians, they aren't suicide bombers and they don't preach the extermination of a people.

Sometimes the answer IS to fight but if it comes down to that it has to be done decisively.

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"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

try this story for starters, re: Israel targeting a school ,killing 100 (?) civilians...

http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/07/un-i ... -baseless/

there is ample evidence from media around the world to show otherwise... Yes there is islamic fanatisism but that card is really overplayed...think locally, Palestinians want their land back, they want to have their homes back they want to be able to walk to school without being attacked by gangs of settlers...what's with 'settlers' anyway?! where are they 'settling' ???

is it because they are raised to hate jews? or because their experience with Israel has taught them to be very angry and they have nothing to lose?

as for extermination of a people, I believe that notion comes from a mistranlation of what buddy from Iran said...he's quoted saying that 'Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth', but in fact he said that , something more like this
'like the south african and the soviet regimes, one day the israeli regime will disappear.'..(or some thing like that). There are numerous global media stories about that. There is a very good 'libertarian' antiwar website, antiwar.com that carries alot of information like this. Its not just bleeding heart liberals and foreigners who oppose Israil's actions against Palestinians.

another good site for balanced information is http://www.juancole.com/ he's american from the University of Michigan. lots of good reading there.

And this means they target them purposely on a continual basis? As I said, they are not blameless.



It isn't overplayed. I've lived amongst it and some friends of mine have lived amongst it for quite some time. None of us are Jewish. Most people have no idea how widespread it really is.



The Mexicans want "their" land back too.



Unless you've lived with that kind of hate you'll never understand it. I don't understand it and I've always been inclined to let that region duke it out amongst themselves.



It doesn't come from a mistranslation. Various clerics, leaders and civilians have outright stated it. I've heard firsthand people say that all Jews should be killed. How can that be misinterpreted?

I don't support all of Israel's actions against Palestinians but its hard to blame them for going against Hamas.

Edited to add: Those sites you included are pretty good. The MSM is not very good at reporting the news.

_________________
"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

why does Hamas and other such organisations hate Israel? there is a root cause to this and its not genetic or inherent in their culture and religion. My boss is Muslim (from India) and he and others who I've met are very peaceful , and non confrontational.

have you checked out 'ifamericansknew'? I posted it above I believe... that site is run by Jews and outlines the history of the Palestinian/Israel conflicts...

here's a good essay on the matter, by an Israeli professor with military service...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e21681.htm

I've read it. At the end of the day, what are you doing to do about it all now? Give some of Israel to the Palestinians? Give it all to them? Better yet, expect them to live amongst each other...now?

Each side has what it has. Israel fared rather well, but Palestinians have done nothing but moan and whine ever since. You'd think they'd get over it but no, all they've done is harbor terrorists and foster hate from one generation to the next. I for one say that's fine. There's always the option of having less or nothing at all. Which, IMO, is exactly what societies like that deserve no matter how raw of a deal you got in the past.

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TANG SOO!

Why wouldn't they "whine and moan"? Not only was there land taken from them but they have been forced to exist at a much lower standard of living. The hate they foster will only keep festering unless they arre listened to and negotiated with reasonably and fairly - and they deserve no less! The Israeli's are making a bad situation worse. The death toll of palestinians in this particular surge of violence is around 700 - half of that number is civilian death which includes 100 children.

Let's face it, fighting for peace is like f****cking for virginity.

And yes dogbreath, it seems that Bush is thwarting the peace brokering now as we speak.

And dog breath - thanks for doing that research. Great websites.

Get over it. It's not going to fly forever.



Yeah I understand how some folks would cow down to hate-mongering, mortar lobbing terrorists and the populace that doesn't do a damn thing to hinder them. Good luck with that there, animal-friendly. If I were Israel, this s**t would have ended long ago.



Yep. They may be making it worse, which is very well the message malcontents like Palestinians need. People like that understand two things--getting no less than what they want and of course, violence.



Exactly. If only the Palestinians would realize this.

_________________
TANG SOO!

you can lead a horse to water ...

I'm glad you read some of that website, but how much ? it details the history of the conflict which should explain why the Palestinians harbour such resentment, and should explain that Israil is taking more than it deserves. Moderates on both sides had been willing to accept Israel as it was in 1967. That would legitimise Israel in the Arab world, and would allow Palestinians to have a homeland and dignity. After all they were there for thousands of years. It is their homeland. but that was derailed by hardliners,(on both sides most likely)...its a sad situation but not one that is natural, or that had to have happened... one thing that I would hope people would get from websites such as this one...'if americans knew' is to realise that there is two full sides to this story, that there is a justification for anger and hostility from the Palestinians and that its not fair, reasonable or realistic to assume that they should just shut up and take what's coming to them. They are not inherently warlike and hatefilled, that comes from circumstances forced upon them.

are you familiar with 'collective punishment', its what's happening right now when an entire population is denied basic services, when schools and hospitals are deliberately destroyed, when food and medical supplies are prevented from passing, and its a war crime.

I often look at the Israel/Palestine thing and compare it to what happened in North America, re: european colonists and the Aboriginal peoples...we took their land, killed them off, starved them off, disenfranchised them, whatever, to take the land that they lived on for millennia and to destroy their culture. The biggest difference I see is that this is going on now, under the eyes of the world who know the difference...(would we 'modern' people do things the same as our forefathers did?) ...but no one can or will stop it...the UN would stop it (does that count for anything??) but the US won't allow it. The US has vetoed EVERY time the UN security Council voted to force Israel to back off on the Palestinions, dozens of times, since 1967 or so...

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html


might does not make right.

this whole thing is so totally disproportionate its pathetic. to put it simply, an eye for an eye is one thing but this is a eye for an eyelash (as is said in one of the essays I linked last night...). Think 'teenagers with slings' (saw that on the news) vs. tanks. Its truly a modern day david and goliath, only turned around.