EnviroLink Forum

I guess we can agree to disagree on some of these key points then...

my whole piont is that it starts somewhere, and the Israeli government, settlers and IDF are by no means innocents...to me hamas and arab violence is a direct result of the actions of Israel...not saying I approve of them but that the one comes from the other...

do you know how to take down hamas without killing every last palestinian? negotiate a two state solution...that will take the wind out of the extremist, and it is undeniable that Palestinians have moral and historical rights to the land.

We do have to agree to disagree. Muslims have been violent for centuries and they are brutal to each other. Not just in the Middle East but in other countries. Israel is not the cause of that brutality nor does Israel sink as far as Hamas does or any other terrorist group.

_________________
"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

You're not adept at translation then because my comment was meant to highlight the objective nature of Dogbreath's posts compared to your own. While he has shown a much greater degree of impartiality and objectivity, you have dug your heels in and irrevocably sided with Israel - my guess is that you have been heavily conditioned by popular media. They seem to have gotten hold of you in a way that the AR media never could. Why is that?

I like the links he has provided because I agree with him or the links? My, but you are a stubborn one. I am not taking sides nor is Dogbreath. We are on the same page in that we are asking both sides to take responsibility and we see that both sides have committed terrorist acts (palestinians) and war crimes (Israelis). There is no doubt that the media favors Israel and we are questioning this in the face of overwhelming evidence that the Palestinians are being grossly mistreated and oppressed. Historically, they have been faced with this oppression since their land was taken, by force, from them.

If israel wants an end to the violence, it is past time that they come up with another solution because dropping bombs and firing artillary into Gaza is not solving anything and only making the situation worse. Of course, Hamas will have to do the same but first, they will need assurances of reasonable negotiations. I will say it again - they deserve no less!

Peace has been brokered in different parts of the world at different times. There ARE examples of successful peace negotiations which Dog has outlined for you so it is not impossible. What is impossible is a country backed by a superpower directing its killing machines into a densely populated area of people who are already oppressed and terrified and powerless in comparison.

What, exactly, do you not get?

one problem with your statement is that you can simply replace 'christians' for 'muslims' and still be correct. look at our history, recent and distant... and add to it that Christians have been violent toward muslims as well...

think about collateral damage...that really means 'women, children, non-combatant men, who happen to be near a targeted suspected terrorist'...when entire wedding parties, or a city block, are destroyed to target a suspected terrorist...the survivors can only assume that Christians hate them and want to annihilate them...what else could they possibly think? especially when the citizens of the country that creates this collateral damage don't care.

No you really can't. No religion has been as brutal to its own people throughout time as islam. Not one.

_________________
"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

You're not adept at translation [/quote]

I got the translation right. You've demonstrated you're not objective in this matter and others. I also never said Israel was blameless. All I said was if I were forced to choose I'd never side with Hamas.

You're not questioning the media too hard. A lot of it doesn't favor Israel and goes out of its way to show them in a bad light. You also have shown you didn't question the media much about Obama.

_________________
"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

We are not at present talking about Obama or "other" issues. We are sticking to one topic and we will not pull other discussions into this one. No matter, I have far less patience than Dogbreath. I believe the topic is exhausted at this point, especially where you are concerned.

inquisition, witch trials, heretic burnings, catholic/protestant purges, hanging for stealing loaf of bread, hanging for homosexuals, ...I'm sure there's more but this is just a synopsis of Christian violence on fellow christians, through church's and governments...

Not like islam has done to islam. Its not even close and islam has maintained their brutality over hundreds of years. They still behead, stone, they just made crucifiction legal and I've seen too much video from people who've been there on how they slowly execute people. How about what they do to women and how they treat them? They are treated as second class citizens. Ever heard of genital mutilation?

No other religion approaches the brutality of islam.

_________________
"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

No you really can't. No religion has been as brutal to its own people throughout time as
Not like islam has done to islam. Its not even close and islam has maintained their brutality over hundreds of years. They still behead, stone, they just made crucifiction legal and I've seen too much video from people who've been there on how they slowly execute people. How about what they do to women and how they treat them? They are treated as second class citizens. Ever heard of genital mutilation?
No other religion approaches the brutality of islam.[/quote]

*****************************

Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination.

Warning....Explicit content.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

inquisition, witch trials, heretic burnings, catholic/protestant purges, hanging for stealing loaf of bread, hanging for homosexuals, ...I'm sure there's more but this is just a synopsis of Christian violence on fellow christians, through church's and governments...[/quote]

Not like islam has done to islam. Its not even close and islam has maintained their brutality over hundreds of years. They still behead, stone, they just made crucifiction legal and I've seen too much video from people who've been there on how they slowly execute people. How about what they do to women and how they treat them? They are treated as second class citizens. Ever heard of genital mutilation?

No other religion approaches the brutality of islam.[/quote]


you aren't giving much thought to Christian, European history then are you.

The inquistion was brought against anyone who didn't jump high enough to support the version of Christianity in power at the time. Heretics (anyone who didn't follow the letter of the religious doctrine to the T...) were tortured to confess then 'released' by burning. Thousands of fellow christians were treated thus, as were thousands of Jews and muslims...In England and America, hundreds (if not thousands) of people (mostly poor ,marginalised, women and widows) were burned as witches with no valid proof of misdeeds, just based on paranoid ignorance or someone malicious accusations...I have read accounts that claim much of church land in England was acquired in this manner, widows who held land titles , and who had no families to speak for them were often charged as witches, burned and the lands taken by the church...

genital mutilation is not supported in the Koran but is a tribal thing practiced in some parts of Africa. I was listening to a CBC radio documentary on it yesterday re: a grass roots movement in Mali to stop this horrific practice that is supported by both Imams and by 'pagan' (for lack of a better word) preists but is not supported in the Koran.

Many of the brutal practices of Islamic nations today are not because Islam is inherently evil or violent but because of regional and local history and practices.

There are christian sects who deny women and children rights, force female children into marriages with old men, do not allow them associate with members of the outside world, etc, but can you say that means that "Christianity" is oppressive? its a minor sect(s) , not the whole religion.

Christian governments are bombing the shite out of Islamic countrysides killing non-combatants by the hundreds, thousands...they have every reason to take that to mean that Christianity is a brutal religion...ever hear 'W' use the word 'Crusade' in his 'war on terror'?

Islam is as violent as the people who practice is, as is Christianity, as us Judaism.

you can look at passages in the old testament that say you should stone your neighbour if he works on the sabbath...does that demonstrate that Christianity is violent? There are Christian sects who I would not trust with 'power' because I feel that is the direction they would take the rest of us...

question; What right does Israel have to the land that the Palestians call their homeland? You haven't answered that one yet...

This is an excellent article about the Jewish State of Israel.

extract...
"...Israel holds territories that it captured in 1967 from Syria (the Golan Heights), Jordan (the West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza). In certain sections of the West Bank, an autonomous Palestinian Authority was established...."

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/ ... 52,00.html

The British mandate to govern Palestine ended after the war, and, in 1947, the UN voted to partition Palestine. When the British officially withdrew on May 14, 1948, the Jewish National Council proclaimed the State of Israel.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107652.html

Oh yes I am. I make no excuses for what any religion has done including islam. You are ignoring that islam maintains unparalleled brutality today and in far greater amounts than any other religion and has done so since its inception.



Brutality to women is supported in the koran whether it be treating them as second class citizens, beating, genital mutilation or anything else.



It is because islam is inherently violent. "Good" muslims ignore that aspect which they don't like.



Those governments are secular not Christian. The muslim governments are not and take their direction from clerics who hold the real power.



No it is more so and thats supported throughout history. Islam has its roots in violence with its prophet being a murderer, pedophile, rapist and thief.



Do Christians still stone people? Muslims stone their own. Ever seen someone executed very slowly to cause the most painful of death? Muslims frequently do this to their own.

I can't think of a group I would trust with power regardless of religion. Power corrupts.

_________________
"Animal rights is mental illness masquerading as philosophy" ~ Unknown

"The mightiest of weapons is truth. And everyone knows you’re not permitted to enter a Government building with a weapon." -- The Covert Comic www.covertcomic.com

The US government is Secular but it is a "christian' country in practice and perception. 'In God We Trust'...'United Under God'...

African slavery was perpetuated by 'christians', and it was justified by its practitioners by passages in the bible. Members of the KKK (past and present) likely consider themselves 'good christians'. The holocaust was carried out within a christian society...

consider too the sexual abuse scandals that have rocked the Catholic church world wide...while not actively supported by the church, the church turned blind eyes and did nothing to prevent the sexual abuse of thousands of children around the world. Can that be concluded then to be a 'christian' problem? some might argue that to be so.

Certainly there are harsh, repressive islamic governments, but that does not prove that islam is a religion of violence. There are harsh , repressive secular governments too.

My point is that if you are going to point at history and say that proves Islam is a religion of violence, then you are missing your own history because Christian history is blocked full of violence. google 'Christian violence'...and read...

what I see is the vilification of an entire religion practised by a couple billion people around the world, to justify acts of violence against Muslim countries. This is very dangerous because it sets us up for a 'clash of civilizations', which would be a major escalation from colonial, empire building land and resource grabs...to global conflagration...