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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:59 pm 
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What hunters and other killers of animals do is legal at the moment, but it is terror nonetheless.


If the act of hunting does not impose fear on the animal, it is not terror.

Terrorism is used to force people to comply to what they want through the use of fear.

The animals are not forced to do anything, and they can't comprehend fear, so there is no terrorism involved. Aside from in your own mind.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:00 pm 
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I almost hate to say this, but I have to agree with what Mr. Balluch says, too. That said, I'm more willing to at least read some of the references you provide in your arguments, and will go so far as to say I can even agree with some of that which is being said. I also have to admit that some statements truly made me stop and think.

Now, will this all change me? Perhaps so; perhaps not. The jury is still out on that one, but at least I'm willing to consider change.

Is that a little better?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:03 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
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    Illinois has humane laws to protect animals, but rodeo thugs have nothing to fear in Wauconda, Illinois, where the Lake County Sheriff's Department and the Lake County State's Attorney's Office are in the tank for the Wauconda Rodeo.


oh yeah .... protecting the status quo. Somebody's gotta do it ..... they get their pay cheque and they have a means of paying their mortgage, sending their kids to school, the dentist, disneyland ... whatever it takes to have a "good life" ... we all want the "good life", right?

The rodeo folks want the same thing.

The ticket payers want the same thing too - with a little entertainment please! Give us something to do on weekends. Give us a meeting place where our friends and neighbors come. Rodeos are exciting! They are a tradition and part of our culture.

So what, exactly, is your problem??? Huh?


Sorry, I am starting to work on my income tax return so I'll let Dr. Richard Ryder answer your loaded question (????) again. Dr. Ryder is a British psychologist, author of several books who used to work in animal research laboratories, as I am sure you know:


Only someone in self serving denial, stuck in the 16th/17th century Descartian nonsense and total ignorance regarding up to date knowledge of animal behavioral psychology would argue otherwise with no shame like some people still argue that the Earth is flat.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Ante, do you believe the pregnant doe being eatten alive by the wolf feels terror as it is happening?

In view of the difficulty that question may pose, let's try another.

Are those engaging in a omnivoric diet terrorist? Since so many animals get killed?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:58 pm 
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roadside wrote:
I almost hate to say this, but I have to agree with what Mr. Balluch says, too. That said, I'm more willing to at least read some of the references you provide in your arguments, and will go so far as to say I can even agree with some of that which is being said. I also have to admit that some statements truly made me stop and think.

Now, will this all change me? Perhaps so; perhaps not. The jury is still out on that one, but at least I'm willing to consider change.

Is that a little better?


No, that is excellent! Also, nothing I say here is personal. I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else. What I do here is a small part of my humble and long struggle for those who I have loved and respected ever since I was a child on a vineyard when I realized their suffering and pain and felt for their yearning to live and avoid the suffering. How much each of them exactly suffers and feels pain, I don't really know and I don't think that anyone does at this time; but there is enough evidence that they do. Some animal behaviorists even think that their experience of terror is much more severe because they live in a state of "now," continuous present and can not fully rationalize that the pain and terror inflicted upon them will ever end.

Anyway, in spite of what I say, which is most of the time rhetorical in nature, I am trying not to judge anyone or harm personally anyone in any way, nor do I think that I am better than anyone. Far away from it. For example being a freegan is in some way like being Christian. It is realisation that we can NOT ever be perfect but we try the best we can.

I'll be off for a while. I have to work on my income tax return, so you are all going to get a brake from me. All the best!

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Last edited by Ante Bozanich on Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:18 pm 
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Well, good luck on the tax-return. Those things can just get absurdly difficult.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:00 pm 
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Iowanic wrote:
Ante, do you believe the pregnant doe being eatten alive by the wolf feels terror as it is happening?

In view of the difficulty that question may pose, let's try another.

Are those engaging in a omnivoric diet terrorist? Since so many animals get killed?


One more of my whatever...

I think the first step would be awareness and admission -- recognizing that there is something going on here which is fundamentally wrong.

Human dependence on systematic use of animals which is impossible without animal abuse is enormous. The economic and political forces enmeshed in this monstrously spectacular murdering machine are controlling the way people think and live. To change this, I don't think is going to happen over night. I agree with people who take a pluralistic strategic approaches. Perhaps it will take slow eroding of these institutions and forcing them out of existence. I think if gradually animal products becomes unavailable, people will not miss them. Maybe, animal flesh will be substituted with meat produced in laboratories. Some animal liberation strategists are working on that.

I personally think that animal liberation is not possible within the capitalist economic system where everything is owned and controlled by those who are primarily interested in profit and their own interests.

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Last edited by Ante Bozanich on Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:13 pm 
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I think the first step would be awareness and admission -- recognizing that there is something going on here which is fundamentally wrong.


An omnivore eating meat is fundamentally wrong? This coming from the person that gets his supper from the dumpster just before they load it up for the landfill. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:02 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:53 am 
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Ante Bozanich wrote:
I think the first step would be awareness and admission -- recognizing that there is something going on here which is fundamentally wrong.


What means and methods at your disposal have shown success in this regard on folks that don't already agree with you?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:47 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Ante Bozanich wrote:
I think the first step would be awareness and admission -- recognizing that there is something going on here which is fundamentally wrong.


What means and methods at your disposal have shown success in this regard on folks that don't already agree with you?


Classified information...

ImageImage


Will Potter, the author of Green Is the New Red blog speaks:



    Will Potter is an award-winning independent journalist based in Washington, D.C., who has become a leading authority on “eco-terrorism,” the environmental and animal rights movements, and civil liberties post 9/11.

    Will has testified before the U.S. Congress on his reporting, and frequently speaks with journalists and in public forums about efforts to roll back civil liberties in the name of fighting terrorism. (source)

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Last edited by Ante Bozanich on Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:16 am 
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Here is part II and part III of the above video "Talk - Representation of Activists." In these two segments, the attorneys on the panel are speaking about this issue and their work; first Lauren Regan of the Civil Liberties Defense Center and then Shannon Keith of the Activist Legal Fund. Shannon Keith is also a film maker. She made a documentary film about Animal Liberation Front (ALF) "Behind the Mask."






The next is a video of Dr. Steven Best answering the question: Who are the real terrorists? Those who fight for liberation of animals or those who kill, torture and terrorize billions of animal persons for profit and other selfish gains?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:43 am 
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Gee, that's a hard one. Anybody wanna guess who Best picks? :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Iowanic wrote:
Gee, that's a hard one. Anybody wanna guess who Best picks? :roll:


Yes, of course! I think, it is also an easy and obviously the true answer. Only the people believing that animals are machines, not capable of experiencing the terror and people who are anthropocentric bigots believing that our human species is the master species would answer differently.

However, since public doesn't care or is duped into believing that the emperor is dressed, speciesist bigotry is prevalent and the animal exploiters -- the real terrorists -- are viciously and mightily protecting their economic and political interests; some critical thinkers such as Steven Best and others who have clear vision, sense of justice and courage, have to keep pointing out the obvious.

But, keep rolling your eyes. Maybe it will help you to see the self-evident some day.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:52 pm 
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Ante Bozanich wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Quote:


    Illinois has humane laws to protect animals, but rodeo thugs have nothing to fear in Wauconda, Illinois, where the Lake County Sheriff's Department and the Lake County State's Attorney's Office are in the tank for the Wauconda Rodeo.


oh yeah .... protecting the status quo. Somebody's gotta do it ..... they get their pay cheque and they have a means of paying their mortgage, sending their kids to school, the dentist, disneyland ... whatever it takes to have a "good life" ... we all want the "good life", right?

The rodeo folks want the same thing.

The ticket payers want the same thing too - with a little entertainment please! Give us something to do on weekends. Give us a meeting place where our friends and neighbors come. Rodeos are exciting! They are a tradition and part of our culture.

So what, exactly, is your problem??? Huh?


Sorry, I am starting to work on my income tax return so I'll let Dr. Richard Ryder answer your loaded question (????) again. Dr. Ryder is a British psychologist, author of several books who used to work in animal research laboratories, as I am sure you know:


Only someone in self serving denial, stuck in the 16th/17th century Descartian nonsense and total ignorance regarding up to date knowledge of animal behavioral psychology would argue otherwise with no shame like some people still argue that the Earth is flat.



My apologies Ante. My post was meant to be sarcastic. I guess that didn't translate very well.


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