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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:55 am 
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http://projectwilderness.wordpress.com/ ... g-animals/

Whadda think?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:07 am 
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à chacun son goût


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:21 am 
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" … All the things you miss when moving at hiking speed seemed to jump out at you. … ..."

I've seen hunters moving through the woods very slowly and can wait patiently for hours, enhanced in their senses taking in every atom of sound, smell, sight, movement, etc., of their surroundings. Certainly, the hunting process requires a lot of time with patience in the wilderness, a heightened awareness of one's outdoor surroundings, considerable knowledge of the quarry as well as the forest and other animals that live in the forest, and one is likely privy to the kind of close encounters of animals that you can't get in other outdoor activities, maybe including hiking.

As a fairly keen hiker myself, I may be over-reacting and defensive at Asha Swem's article. But, I got the sense that, for Swem, a hiker sees, thinks and feels less or nothing, or very little, of the wilderness compared to a hunter. I have never attended a hunt in the US (just part of a trek many years ago with my uncle, who hunted for big animals in east Africa). So, I'm sure the hunter sees and experiences animals and the forest sometimes more and differently from hikers. But, I still felt Swem's article kind of dismissed hiking as a very passive, non observant activity.

I don't know what kind of hiking or hiking terrain and camping Asha Swem did. Depending on the kind of day hikes and overnight hikes, however, one can be just as alone in the wilderness and observe a lot of wildlife and vegetation and see the most incredible views. I do a lot of elevation day hiking. I can encounter lots of small animals. Also big ones and can sometimes recognise their tracks, droppings and other markings. I've had a lone coyote with me for nearly an hour, seen moose and lots of Whitetail (I see deer close up on a regular basis anyway). I know black bear are around, but have not seen them while hiking (more reported encounters in my neighbourhood). A good hiker will also learn and practice survival skills for hiking and getting lost. S/he can join a hiking club. Membership money can help for land acquisition and trail conservation, e.g. A club can also offer day classes, group hikes and camps where you learn about conservation of forest and trails, basic survival and forest safety skills, about hiking gear, indigenous animal behaviour (though likely not as in depth as hunter knowledge, unless the hiker is interested in such) and how to keep oneself safe. You learn this also from good hiking books and journals and putting tips into practice. Also, some clubs point you to other camps that offer other activities that include archery, shooting, fishing, animal tracking, and survival and knowledge skills that can be used for hiking, as well as do group hikes.

Certainly, anti-hunters and non-hunters may not realise that hunting is much more than killing an animal. But, it could be pointed out that some hunter skills and I think many of their outdoor experiences can be had outside of actual hunting activities. Hunting doesn't have the monopoly on getting up early in the morning (I'm up at 4 a.m. every week day as it is), being alone with nature, observing animals and changes in vegetation, abrupt weather changes, aloneness or brother-/sisterhood, etc. I mention hiking because the author claims to have hiked and camped, but writes like she is a very passive hiker. Again, maybe I'm over-reacting and wanting to defend one of my interests. I find it hard to believe that as she hiked, regardless of hiking speed, she missed how cold the wind was, the smell of freshness, the small rodents, or that she missed the views and the opportunity to stop and observe larger wildlife and take in the great magic of the outdoors. The purpose of hiking is not so much to look for animals, and hikers take existing trails and don't lie in wait, so the knowledge and experiences will differ and we may participate differently in the biological dramas of nature's life-death-decomposition-renewal cycle, but we often do read and think of the animals, are careful of our hiking steps to avoid their habitat and food destruction, and we do see plants and animals or evidence of them. No doubt, however, there are ill-prepared, non-observant and even slob hikers, and maybe Swem is one of them. Real hiking, which can also, like hunting, take hours even days, takes a lot of thought and preparation (and sometimes layers in clothing, as well!) and lots of time. In real hiking, for safety and pleasure and for the continued future of hiking, every step absolutely counts and should be appreciated. Hiking, like hunting, and other serious outdoors activity (veggie gardening, birding, kayaking, skiing, snowshoing, etc., etc.), can also make one a better steward, a better citizen and a better person. But, I agree that hunting is more than just killing animals and I can respect hunters as skilled and knowledgeable, restorers and protectors of wildlife and the outdoors that, and I can appreciate that in some instances it is perhaps because of hunters and hunting, I too can enjoy my hiking.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:59 am 
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I've seen the blog. The substance is good and the topic there is very clear. I vehemently disagree with hunting because yeah it is more than killing those poor animals in then wild. Although in that blog the author seems to highlight that hunting is not bad at all though in my opinion it will never be good because you are stepping in a territory to make them feel uncomfortable and worst kill some of them. Though I respect their outlook still for me hunting will never be as good. :-#


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:41 pm 
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Just came across this one by a contemporary Buddha .... now dead, but his words are alive. Could also have been posted in open forum, but there's enough content to merit its inclusion here, especially as human beings are animals.


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It is odd that we have so little relationship with nature, with the insects and the leaping frog and the owl that hoots among the hills calling for its mate. We never seem to have a feeling for all living things on the earth. If we could establish a deep abiding relationship with nature we would never kill an animal for our appetite, we would never harm, vivisect, a monkey, a dog, a guinea pig for our benefit. We would find other ways to heal our wounds, heal our bodies. But the healing of the mind is something totally different. That healing gradually takes place if you are with nature, with that orange on the tree, and the blade of grass that pushes through the cement, and the hills covered, hidden, by the clouds. This is not sentiment or romantic imagination but a reality of a relationship with everything that lives and moves on the earth. Man has killed millions of whales and is still killing them. All that we derive from their slaughter can be had through other means. But apparently man loves to kill things, the fleeting deer, the marvellous gazelle and the great elephant. We love to kill each other. This killing of other human beings has never stopped throughout the history of man's life on this earth. If we could, and we must, establish a deep long abiding relationship with nature, with the actual trees, the bushes, the flowers, the grass and the fast moving clouds, then we would never slaughter another human being for any reason whatsoever. Organized murder is war, and though we demonstrate against a particular war, the nuclear, or any other kind of war, we have never demonstrated against war. We have never said that to kill another human being is the greatest sin on earth. - Krishnamurti to Himself 25th February, 1983


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:13 am 
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Iowanic wrote:
http://projectwilderness.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/hunting-more-than-just-killing-animals/

Whadda think?


I think it's a great article. When someone who is a non-hunter, or even an anti, actually has an experience and learns some facts and truth about hunting, it only helps hunters. Thanks for posting!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:30 am 
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Reeves wrote:
" … All the things you miss when moving at hiking speed seemed to jump out at you. … ..."

I've seen hunters moving through the woods very slowly and can wait patiently for hours, enhanced in their senses taking in every atom of sound, smell, sight, movement, etc., of their surroundings. Certainly, the hunting process requires a lot of time with patience in the wilderness, a heightened awareness of one's outdoor surroundings, considerable knowledge of the quarry as well as the forest and other animals that live in the forest, and one is likely privy to the kind of close encounters of animals that you can't get in other outdoor activities, maybe including hiking.

As a fairly keen hiker myself, I may be over-reacting and defensive at Asha Swem's article. But, I got the sense that, for Swem, a hiker sees, thinks and feels less or nothing, or very little, of the wilderness compared to a hunter. I have never attended a hunt in the US (just part of a trek many years ago with my uncle, who hunted for big animals in east Africa). So, I'm sure the hunter sees and experiences animals and the forest sometimes more and differently from hikers. But, I still felt Swem's article kind of dismissed hiking as a very passive, non observant activity.

I don't know what kind of hiking or hiking terrain and camping Asha Swem did. Depending on the kind of day hikes and overnight hikes, however, one can be just as alone in the wilderness and observe a lot of wildlife and vegetation and see the most incredible views. I do a lot of elevation day hiking. I can encounter lots of small animals. Also big ones and can sometimes recognise their tracks, droppings and other markings. I've had a lone coyote with me for nearly an hour, seen moose and lots of Whitetail (I see deer close up on a regular basis anyway). I know black bear are around, but have not seen them while hiking (more reported encounters in my neighbourhood). A good hiker will also learn and practice survival skills for hiking and getting lost. S/he can join a hiking club. Membership money can help for land acquisition and trail conservation, e.g. A club can also offer day classes, group hikes and camps where you learn about conservation of forest and trails, basic survival and forest safety skills, about hiking gear, indigenous animal behaviour (though likely not as in depth as hunter knowledge, unless the hiker is interested in such) and how to keep oneself safe. You learn this also from good hiking books and journals and putting tips into practice. Also, some clubs point you to other camps that offer other activities that include archery, shooting, fishing, animal tracking, and survival and knowledge skills that can be used for hiking, as well as do group hikes.

Certainly, anti-hunters and non-hunters may not realise that hunting is much more than killing an animal. But, it could be pointed out that some hunter skills and I think many of their outdoor experiences can be had outside of actual hunting activities. Hunting doesn't have the monopoly on getting up early in the morning (I'm up at 4 a.m. every week day as it is), being alone with nature, observing animals and changes in vegetation, abrupt weather changes, aloneness or brother-/sisterhood, etc. I mention hiking because the author claims to have hiked and camped, but writes like she is a very passive hiker. Again, maybe I'm over-reacting and wanting to defend one of my interests. I find it hard to believe that as she hiked, regardless of hiking speed, she missed how cold the wind was, the smell of freshness, the small rodents, or that she missed the views and the opportunity to stop and observe larger wildlife and take in the great magic of the outdoors. The purpose of hiking is not so much to look for animals, and hikers take existing trails and don't lie in wait, so the knowledge and experiences will differ and we may participate differently in the biological dramas of nature's life-death-decomposition-renewal cycle, but we often do read and think of the animals, are careful of our hiking steps to avoid their habitat and food destruction, and we do see plants and animals or evidence of them. No doubt, however, there are ill-prepared, non-observant and even slob hikers, and maybe Swem is one of them. Real hiking, which can also, like hunting, take hours even days, takes a lot of thought and preparation (and sometimes layers in clothing, as well!) and lots of time. In real hiking, for safety and pleasure and for the continued future of hiking, every step absolutely counts and should be appreciated. Hiking, like hunting, and other serious outdoors activity (veggie gardening, birding, kayaking, skiing, snowshoing, etc., etc.), can also make one a better steward, a better citizen and a better person. But, I agree that hunting is more than just killing animals and I can respect hunters as skilled and knowledgeable, restorers and protectors of wildlife and the outdoors that, and I can appreciate that in some instances it is perhaps because of hunters and hunting, I too can enjoy my hiking.


Hi Reeves. Thanks as always for your thoughtful input. I think perhaps what she is trying to say is that there is something special about hunting and the effect it has on the senses. As any hunter can attest, there is something about hunting that seems to amplify the senses. You seem to see every slight movement. You seem to smell every faint scent. You seem to hear every little noise. You seem to feel every puff of breeze. I've done a lot of hiking, as well as hunting, in my time, and when I hike, I'm pretty observant and take in lots of things. But, at least for me, it doesn't compare to the kind of sensual high gear experienced in hunting. When I was in college all wildlife biology and forestry students had to go to a summer field camp for field work. You had to be quite observant in the woods as recording such observations were required for the class. Even then, when it was imperative to be consciously observant, it didn't compare to hunting. I would imagine that the senses being so attuned while hunting is a function of evolutionary biology. After all, for our ancestors, success or failure at hunting could very well be a matter of life and death.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:58 am 
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GreenCarz wrote:
I've seen the blog. The substance is good and the topic there is very clear. I vehemently disagree with hunting because yeah it is more than killing those poor animals in then wild. Although in that blog the author seems to highlight that hunting is not bad at all though in my opinion it will never be good because you are stepping in a territory to make them feel uncomfortable and worst kill some of them. Though I respect their outlook still for me hunting will never be as good. :-#



Quote:
I vehemently disagree with hunting because yeah it is more than killing those poor animals in then wild. Although in that blog the author seems to highlight that hunting is not bad at all though in my opinion it will never be good because you are stepping in a territory to make them feel uncomfortable and worst kill some of them.


The idea that hunting is bad because it makes animals feel "uncomfortable" is a very weak argument. Animals almost always feel "uncomfortable" because they live in a world of survival of the fittest and predator and prey. They are constantly on the lookout for ANYTHING which could harm them. For example, a deer, as a prey animal, is constantly aware of the danger of predators. Whether the predator is a human hunter or a pack of wolves, is irrelevant, as the deer, by its nature, is constantly in this state of awareness. This isn't a state of "discomfort", it's a survival instinct. To claim that human hunters, of and by themselves, cause animals to be "uncomfortable" is false. It is even irrational anthropomorphizing to suggest that the natural instinct of being on the lookout for predators is "uncomfortable". Just because such a mental state would indeed be uncomfortable for humans in the modern world, that doesn't mean it is necessarily so for other species. For them, it is simply a fact of life. They actually know nothing else.
Before you fully entrench yourself in an anti position, here are some additional things to consider. First, hunting is a wildlife management tool that helps keep wildlife populations in check and at healthy levels. If you are concerned about lessening the suffering of animals, then you actually should be pro-hunting, because it does exactly that. Hunting removes animals from the population that might otherwise die from things like disease, predation, starvation, winter kill, etc.. All of these kinds of deaths produce far more suffering to an animal than being dispatched by a rifle or arrow. Secondly, sales of hunting, as well as fishing, licenses , is what funds most wildlife conservation. The funds from these sales go to everything to enforcement of anti-poaching laws to habitat conservation through land purchases. There is a saying that if you enjoy wildlife and wild lands, thank a sportsman. And it is indeed true. If you were to ban hunting, how would you fund conservation measures? That, I think, is a question you need to answer if you are an anti. One more thing to consider: every time a hunter sits down to meal of say, venison or wild duck, that is a meal in which he/she is not consuming meat from industrialized agriculture. Wild game is not only a healthy, natural food, it is an environmentally friendly food as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:19 pm 
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I agree with Grizzly, and just wish there were fewer hunters so I could get a chance to do it again. I also wish my back was back in the shape it was when I shouldered my first bloody deer carcass and walked over a mile with it getting heavier every yard.
The thing I hated about the blog is the fact that all the immigration since 1965 has been excessive, and here we have people that never built America coming here and hunting. More overpopulation from over-breeders escaping a crowded place to come and make our country crowded and weird. Not like the greatest generation and their kids, at all.
Sickening, really. :x

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:22 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
I agree with Grizzly, and just wish there were fewer hunters so I could get a chance to do it again. I also wish my back was back in the shape it was when I shouldered my first bloody deer carcass and walked over a mile with it getting heavier every yard.
The thing I hated about the blog is the fact that all the immigration since 1965 has been excessive, and here we have people that never built America coming here and hunting. More overpopulation from over-breeders escaping a crowded place to come and make our country crowded and weird. Not like the greatest generation and their kids, at all.
Sickening, really. :x


Where have you tried to hunt? My buddies and I hunt elk every October on public land and usually don't see another soul outside of our own party the whole week. Just takes a little homework/scouting/knowledge, good maps/GPS, a solid 4-wheel drive, and a little desire to go off the beaten path.
I'm not sure why you're angry about immigrants hunting. If they are here legally and are law-abiding and safe they should have every opportunity to enjoy this privilege. And yes, immigrants continue to build America just as they have in previous generations. All of us, including you, unless you are of pure Native American heritage, have ancestors that came here from somewhere else at some time. Really, why the bitter xenophobia?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Grizzly Bear wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
I agree with Grizzly, and just wish there were fewer hunters so I could get a chance to do it again. I also wish my back was back in the shape it was when I shouldered my first bloody deer carcass and walked over a mile with it getting heavier every yard.
The thing I hated about the blog is the fact that all the immigration since 1965 has been excessive, and here we have people that never built America coming here and hunting. More overpopulation from over-breeders escaping a crowded place to come and make our country crowded and weird. Not like the greatest generation and their kids, at all.
Sickening, really. :x


Where have you tried to hunt? My buddies and I hunt elk every October on public land and usually don't see another soul outside of our own party the whole week. Just takes a little homework/scouting/knowledge, good maps/GPS, a solid 4-wheel drive, and a little desire to go off the beaten path.
I'm not sure why you're angry about immigrants hunting. If they are here legally and are law-abiding and safe they should have every opportunity to enjoy this privilege. And yes, immigrants continue to build America just as they have in previous generations. All of us, including you, unless you are of pure Native American heritage, have ancestors that came here from somewhere else at some time. Really, why the bitter xenophobia?

Since the 1965 Immigration Act stopped the well thought of Immigration Quota Act of 1924, we have been increasingly inundated by people who did not build America but use it and liberal views to not assimilate or be a real benefit to this country. We found out about how we were really well overpopulated a few years later, and the un-needed growth has been from third worlders who breed excessively, don't assimilate, are not part of our heritage, demand I press 1 for English, and group together in anti-American enclaves. The nation which had its own culture, language, and won WWII and went to the moon is becoming a multi-cultural hodgepodge and weaker. If you've ever read former Colorado Governor Lamm's speech on it, you would understand my position. Nationalism, and wanting sustainability for my country are not xenophobia. That is a word used by the enemy invaders and their felonious enablers, or liberal infinite Earth whackos.
The only year I would have had help to get an elk, my draw was missed in four categories because of too many hunters and not enough game in Colorado. I can not walk more than a couple blocks anymore. If you've read, I am a decorated combat pilot of Dustoff who got his back broken getting illegally shot down, and gutted the pain 33 years. Now I'm 100% but not in a wheelchair, so don't get disabled advantage for hunting.
As far as "pure native Americans" go, the Americas did not have human beings until waves of various bands of Solutrians came across first the oceans, then the land. Almost always at war with each other. White people who became Europeans were also Solutrians originally, but broke off and went north before the migrations to America. The Norse first colonized North America in the year 999 but by 1002 had gone off with the tribe that would become the Ojibway or Chippewaw. Another "white" tribe had migrated over 9K years ago to the Washington state area, but were killed off. Those of Aboriginal stock who came across from SE Asia were wiped out, too. The migrations that were successful started 23,000 years ago, with successive migrations being forced further south or inland, or the people here being forced. When villages got too big, some would leave to make new ones. Most were very nomadic and always wandering. There were over 500 different languages in South America and around 250 in North America. In North America at the time of the Spanish Mexican conquests, the most hated tribe was the Aztec, who enslaved others and had their brutal and bloody rituals. The Apaches hated them and the Lakota, and other tribes hated others, like the Crow and Lakota (Sioux) who were related but constantly killed each other. It helped keep the population down. In South America there had been overpopulation and a crash, and of course the same on Easter Island near the same time.
There was probably some contact with Peloponesians from the Mediterranean, and the Chinese probably made it to American shores around 1400, but left. Each territory belonged to the tribe who won in battle, and often territory was not held with moving villages.
America as we know it now was established by 1848 except for Alaska. By 1924, Immigration had made the country populated more than enough, and its character, culture, and language defined. The Immigration Quota Act of 1924 limited immigration to the percentages of people already here and was around equal to the number that left each year. It was the foundation for a sustainable country made by people with foresight and without greed for cheap labor. Ted kennedy and LBJ ruined that, along with putting Social Security Individual Accounts into the General Spending Fund, forcing a growth only economy. LBJ's cronies got cheap labor, Ted K got the Pope's blessing, and both lied with promises of it not getting excessive and not hurting America. Since then, I have witnessed it going downhill in all ways. Overcrowded, dumbed down, enemy enclaves like Trojan Horses, multi-culturalized, and extremely in debt.
In Colorado and Arizona, I have witnessed more hunters than game animals, and in other areas have heard of deer overpopulation in subdivided ever growing suburbs of liberal anti-hunting whiners who will not let good bowsmen in to hunt and try deer contraceptives instead. This is not the way it was, or is supposed to be. :x :cry:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:39 am 
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I'm sorry if I got to offend some of you here about my view on hunting. Sorry but that's what I stand for. I respect you guys if that's your opinion it's just that we have our own way of accepting things and situations. Peace everyone! 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:16 pm 
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GreenCarz wrote:
I'm sorry if I got to offend some of you here about my view on hunting. Sorry but that's what I stand for. I respect you guys if that's your opinion it's just that we have our own way of accepting things and situations. Peace everyone! 8)


I don't find your view on hunting to be offensive. I do, however, consider it to be irrational. See my above post for an explanation as to why.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:58 am 
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Again, I agree with you Grizzly. Greencarz view is irrational, as are those of, I have found, most vegetarians and anti-hunters.
For any animal life to live requires something has to die. Who is more important, the wheat plant or the grasshopper eating it? Or what is more important, the yeast or the malted barley, or the hops, in beer? Grasshopper, life is a circle, and those who flush and forget, or forget that plants are true life, have left that circle. To hunt is to live in that circle.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:00 am 
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GreenCarz wrote:
I've seen the blog. The substance is good and the topic there is very clear. I vehemently disagree with hunting because yeah it is more than killing those poor animals in then wild. Although in that blog the author seems to highlight that hunting is not bad at all though in my opinion it will never be good because you are stepping in a territory to make them feel uncomfortable and worst kill some of them. Though I respect their outlook still for me hunting will never be as good. :-#


Hunting is real. Hunting happens. It often happens for good reasons. It cannot possibly be all good or all bad. It can be careless, it can be unconscious, it can be necessary, it can be gratuitous. Depends on the mind-set of the hunter .... Even vegetarians would hunt if need be. I would but never have because there has never been a reason to, so far. Same for buying meat at the grocery store. One day I may buy it if the need arises, but it never has ..... so far. Being omnivores, we can adapt to meat eating when and if the need arises. If I ever felt the need to eat meat i would far rather eat an animal that has lived its life as the animal it is than buy one from the supermarket of animals specifically riased for the market place.

Hunting is not all good or all bad.


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