EnviroLink Forum

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With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

"Doesn't have unlimited money'

Wow, that is news. The goverment has finally decided to stop printing more money?
There's a first time for everything, I reckon....

They haven't stopped printing....they just can't keep up with the deficits

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

Here I thought there had been no recovery to stall ......

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Yeah, well a lot of economists, politicians and mass media shills believed we were in a recovery. But alas, twas only an increase in employment, increase in the stock markets, and huge increase in bank balance sheets caused by a large infusion of public tax money. That's coming to an end now though and things are startin' to slip.

Lets see how that infusion of money affected the employment picture via the nearly 800 billion dollar "American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan". Below is a prediction by Obama's Council of Economic Advisers on what the unemployment rate would look like if we did nothing versus spending 787 billion to stimulate employment through the recovery plan. This is straight from their own study:



And now a superimposed graph over that original on the reality of the last two and a half years. And yes Wayne, I verified those data points via the BLS web site.



And these dismal figures include the impact of $2 trillion in additional monetary stimulus. Combined, both fiscal and monetary stimulus has now missed the worst case projection for US unemployment for 30 months running.

Bang for yer buck, eh?

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

Where is the updated projection for the impact without the recovery plan? Unless you are claiming there would have been no different impact without the plan, you are comparing apples and cucumbers. The curves look similar to the projections in shape, but the depth of the impact (height of the graph) was mis-projected. That would suggest the graphs would just be moved to a higher level and would show how much bang for the buck we got.

It still looked like a recovery graph to me .....

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

You should go work for the Government Wayne!

The point was that the Council of Economic Advisers clearly missed their projections! That even after pumping billions in economy, the outcome was worse than what they said it would be if they didn't implement the plan at all!

I wonder how many of them are still sitting on that committee?

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

Yes, they missed the projections. It was much worse than anyone expected it to be. That does not make the projected outcome without the attempt any more accurate, so how does it "prove" there would have been a better outcome if only we had let the economy continue to fall?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Hahaha! How does one prove something like that Wayne?

BTW, the town I work for was a recipient of some of that money in the form of a forgivable loan to build a new trunk sewer line to an area zoned for business. Ok, that's done now and there it sits with not one potential development coming forward. We got a hell of a deal on the sewer though as we had over a dozen contractors bid on it where we would normally have only a few. But now, the contractor is laying people off because they didn't have any other projects after this one was completed.

You know, it could have gone in a myriad of different ways. It could have been a case where yes, there would be more pain if they hadn't injected money into the economy BUT an actual recovery may happen faster under that scenario instead of prolonging the misery, which is what I believe is happening now.

And the debt to the taxpayers. That debt should have been forced upon the banks, and stock holders, who gambled with all those mortgage backed securities, credit default swaps, and other exotic financial instruments that nobody fully understood but only cared that they were making a killing with them. Instead, we bailed them out with the pretense that it would open the credit markets back up but that didn't happen, did it? No, they reinvested the money or let it sit and earn interest from the FED making their balance sheets look good. Meanwhile, they're back giving bigger than ever bonuses to their employees while the number of Americans on food stamps grows larger every day.

And all those bad mortgages that the banks KNEW were toxic. Most of them have been transferred to Freddie and Fannie now where they're backed by.......you, the taxpayer. Mortgages that BofA, Citi, Wells Fargo, et al, should have to eat, not the taxpayer. Mortgages that they enticed people to enter into with teaser rates, no money down, adjustable rates, with assurances that their properties would only gain in value and before long they could take second mortgages out and use their homes as a their own little piggy bank.

But you'd rather we spend more to get out of debt and reward the people responsible for this mess?

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

That would be the problem of anyone claiming the actions were not a benefit to the economy, as you seem to wish to do.




So the people would have been laid off sooner and there would not be new infrastructure in place and that did not help the economy?



Pigs may sprout wings and fly around the barnyard, but it is not very likely. Just as it is not very likely an economic recovery would happen faster without any governmental spending.



Yes, it did. The banks were refusing short term loans to other banks. The number of loan programs which disappeared without warning was scary, but now some have returned and more are available as time passes.




Nice strawman you have created there. The economic downturn and debt are two separate issues and as they are interconnected the lesser of two evils was our choice. The political underpennings of your position are clear. I suspect you would have some point of opposition regardless of what was done.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

How can any rational person complain about a path taken to stablize the economy without any level of proof to support the claim that it was not the best choice at the time?

Would the same person be complaining just a loudly now if their current choice had been followed and the result been the same or worse as we have seen?

It is not like we have no access to the historical data. The deeper the recession the longer it takes for recovery, so stopping the fall would seem to be the better choice.

The problem with economics is when too many believe there is a problem there will be a problem even if there was none before. The loss of confidence can cause downturn regardless of any other input.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Yeah Wayne, it was great what the Gov't did! Just what the economy needed. Worked so well, hell, lets do it again!

http://www.hd.net/blogs/2011/06/barofsky-more-bailouts/

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

A blog with an unavailable video? That really is cutting edge evidence ...... not.

In your expert opinion, what should the government have done? The GOP and Democratic party both seemed to have taken the same view on necessary actions, but disagreed on the extent needed. So what was your opinion on what should have been done and why?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Works on my computer... try reloading or maybe you should update your system.



I'm no expert Wayne, you appear to be filling those shoes here. I believe in responsibility and accountability. The people, persons, responsible for the economic melt down should be accountable for the predicament. That didn't happen, they were rewarded.

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.