EnviroLink Forum

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

How about THIS society??
This central hypothesis of today’s economists — from Ben Bernanke’s Fed staff, economists in the World Bank, IMF, CBO and White House economic advisers, to economists at Wall Street banks, think tank and academic economists — is the unquestioned acceptance of the dogma of “Eternal Growth.”

Get it? All economic thought evolves from one unproven and fatally flawed hypothesis: The unscientific assumption that the global economy will continue growing indefinitely … that the world’s economies will be able support global population growth indefinitely … and that all necessary commodities and essential natural resources will be available indefinitely to sustain the world’s relentless economic and demographic growth.

Unfortunately, that’s impossible. Absurd. Irrational. Unscientific. Just plain wrong. So are all the economic conclusions that follow from that hypothesis. Worse, most economists still refuse to see that their own system is not only fatally flawed, it proves the need for a New No-Growth Economics.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/a-20-r ... 2011-08-30

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

The flaw would only exist if we were limited to a single planet in a single solar system, but not so if colonization outside of that single planet and single solar system are factored in.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

We ARE limited to Earth. What is with you, Wayne? You used to be on the logical side, with the ecologists and most of the climatologists. A voice of reason, and often with good data and links. Maybe you need more anti-oxidants and B-vitamins.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

It is a fruitcake idea that there is enough money to establish independent permanent colonies (in any case enough breeding couples to prevent genetic erosion) on the Moon and Mars. It would be much cheaper to go with underground nuclear powered colony fortresses with adequate aquifer water and many centuries of supplies here on Earth.
Still, what would the world be like in "many centuries"? In the throws of worse than PETM conditions, ELE passed, and resequestration time for CO2 and all the other pollution still a couple MILLION years off in the future. Although a majority of other pollution should be safe in 50,000 years. Maybe, refuel the reactors and go back underground until then? Then come out and try to survive on the species that are left and ecosystems that exist, in the conditions that exist.
Almost as hostile as Mars and the Moon, but at least with an atmosphere and water. All very lonely places.............
Giving odds, I would say the chances for a permanent Mars colony surviving at .01%. a Moon colony surviving, .0001%, and an Earth underground, then surface colony surviving, .1%.
Very little chance of the human species lasting until the Earth becomes more like it was at the start of the interglacial. Face it, people blew it.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

This planet can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Society.

Hunter_Gatherer Society sustained on earth for about 1 million years.....Agrarian Society sustained for about 10,000 years [and would have probably sustained for ever if Industrial Society had not come into existence]......Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years.

Industrial Society of 7 billion has led to a Catastrophic Environmental Crisis.

Agrarian Society of 7 billion would have never caused such Environmental Crisis.

Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have never caused such Environmental Crisis.

Only an Industrial Society can have a population of 7 billion.....Agrarian Society and Hunter_Gatherer Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion. World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion today in just about 200 years. In the absence of Industrial Revolution world population would only be a small fraction of 7 billion today.


Industrial Activity for production of “Consumer Goods” and Services must be stopped immediately.....It should not continue for even one more day.....Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

The population of Lions, Tigers and Elephants is down to 2 - 5% of what it was 100 years ago......Population of Large Fish in Oceans is down to 10% of what it was 100 years ago......Industrial Activity has already destroyed 75 - 90% of Biodiversity and Ecosystems......If Industrial Activity is not stopped immediately there will be Total Destruction of Biodiversity and Ecosystems in the next 5 – 10 years.

Industrial Society is a Mass Murderer of Nature.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer of Nature.

Promoters of Industrialization, Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest Killers, Murderers and Terrorists on earth.

In Industrial Society a fraction of population produces Food for entire population......The rest of the population [ which means most of the people living in Cities and Urban Areas] creates unnecessary work to keep itself occupied.....because it would simply go crazy without work.

The list of unnecessary and destructive work in Industrial Society includes......Manufacturing and Marketing of thousands of "Consumer Goods" and Services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex, All kinds of unnecessary Research .....and lots of other work.

Before industrialization there was one Main Profession......Searching for Food or Producing Food......For millions of years the main work / occupation of Animals was "Searching for Food"......For about a million years the main work / occupation of Hunter_Gatherer Society was "Searching for Food"......For about 10,000 years the main work / occupation of Agrarian Society was "Producing Food".

After industrialization there are Hundreds of Professions. A fraction of population produces Food for entire population and the rest is engaged in hundreds of other professions....... Environment is being destroyed for Food plus Hundreds of other Professions.

Pre-industrial Society primarily destroyed environment for Food......Industrial Society is destroying environment for Food plus thousands of "Consumer Goods" and Services. It is height of Insanity to talk about saving environment while destroying more of it.

Out of the population that does not produce Food, the maximum number of people - a few billion people are engaged in Production and Marketing of "Consumer Goods" and Services. Industrial Activity for production of "consumer goods" and services is the biggest destroyer of environment......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining are the biggest destroyers of environment…..Industrial Activity has produced Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste.

Millions of people are working in Sports Industry......Environment is destroyed to manufacture millions of tonnes of Sports Equipment......Millions of Trees have been cut down and billions of acres of fertile soil has been killed with Cement & Concrete to build millions of Stadiums.

Millions of people are working in Tourism Industry......Tourism is all about Travelling which promotes Transportation Industry that destroys Environment......Millions of kilometers of Road and Rail network cutting through Forests destroying Trees and Wildlife.....Millions of kilometers of Shipping Lanes torturing and killing Fish.....Millions of kilometers of Air Routes killing the Air with millions of tonnes of exhaust gases.

Millions of people are working in Entertainment Industry........Environment has been destroyed to construct millions of Buildings that are used for entertainment and to produce millions of tonnes of Electronic Equipment that provides entertainment.

Millions of people are working for "Military Industrial Complex" producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world...... Environment is destroyed when weapons are produced and when they are used.

Millions of City People are engaged in other unnecessary work that destroys even more environment.

Stop Pseudo Environmentalism.......Stop pretending that environment is getting saved......Stop claiming that environment is getting saved.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity.

Industrial Activity will kill millions of Wild Animals today..... Industrial Activity will kill millions of Trees today...... Industrial Activity will kill Air, Water and Land with millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste today....... Industrial Society will kill billions of animals in Slaughter Houses today...... Industrial Society will kill millions of acres of Fertile Soil with Cement & Concrete today........ Industrial Fishing will further deplete the already decimated Fishing Stocks today.

Environment has been destroyed by Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.

If Industrial Activity is not stopped immediately there will be Total Destruction of Biodiversity and Ecosystems in the next 5 – 10 years.

In just 200 years Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Forests, Wild Animals and Fish Population.....It has poisoned the entire planet with Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste.....It has killed Trillions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of acres of Fertile Soil with Cement And Concrete.

Although Industrial Society has existed for 200 years, most of the Environmental Destruction has happened in the last 50 years. The Rate of Destruction has risen exponentially in the last 50 years. This rate is so high now that there will be almost Total Destruction of Biodiversity and Ecosystems in the next 5 – 10 years if Industrial Activity is not stopped immediately.

Food, Clothing and Shelter.....This is the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans.....Even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

This planet can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Society.

Industrial Activity for production of “Consumer Goods” and Services must stop immediately.....It should not continue for even one more day.

Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

The entire world has fallen into the trap of Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument on Environmental Issues.

Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that created the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.

Billions of Pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument is another Harmful Waste created by Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Good to see you back, Sushilydv!!! Absolutely right, the constant arguing and dis-information, with nothing sufficient being done, for years since it should have started.
As time runs out to stop thermageddon from HGHGs, and time ran out long ago to prevent the population crash. Population reduction should have started in the US in the early 1970s, and energy switch to non-CO2 and less ecological and carbon footprint lifestyles, shortly thereafter. Then other countries following suit.
But no, infinite Earthers, the ignorant, and corrupt are in power, while the debate that should have been over 20 years ago goes on.
After the crash, people will live like ages ago, while the climate gets worse and worse for life. While pollution in the oceans, drained aquifers, and depleted soils slowly heal over many thousands of years.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Industrial Society trying to save Environment is like Petrol trying to extinguish a Fire.

All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.

How can Industrial Society ever save environment when Industrialization itself is the cause of environmental destruction?

Thousands of Environmental Organizations, Non Profits and NGO's......Millions of Environmental Activists.....All getting their Funds, Donations and Salaries from the very system that is destroying ecosystems.

Millions of animal species sustained on earth for millions of years without destroying ecosystems......Animals did not have Environmental Organizations, Activists or Billions of Dollars of funds to save environment.....They did not engage themselves in trillions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Research......so how did they do it?......Big Mystery!

Hunter_Gatherer Society sustained on earth for 1 million years without destroying ecosystems......Hunter_Gatherer Society did not have Environmental Organizations, Activists or Billions of Dollars of funds to save environment......It did not engage itself in trillions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Research......so how did they do it?......Big Mystery!

Agrarian Society existed on earth for 10,000 years destroying much lesser environment than Industrial Society.........Agrarian Society did not have Environmental Organizations, Activists or Billions of Dollars of funds to save environment......It did not engage itself in trillions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Research......so how did they do it?......Big Mystery!

Industrial Society trying to save Environment is like Petrol trying to extinguish a Fire

You cannot save a person after killing him.....You can only save him by not killing him.

Industrial Activity kills Environment......You cannot save Environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity.....You can only save Environment by stopping Industrial Activity.

Only a Non Industrial Society can save Environment.

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years.......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed almost all Environment in just 250 years......because it is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.


Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter........And even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

"Agrarian Society caused limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years.......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter."
Back when population was low and population density was low. When people did crop rotation and fallowing of fields often. Back when people did not use fossil water or fuel. Back when people would use their excrement for fertilizer and shallow bury their dead for the worms to eat. Making tools to make work easier was fine until overpopulation came in and over-use started.
Digging canals to bring in water was fine until it was polluted and used up by too many people.
Even an agrarian society can get too big and cause soil depletion, and huge pollution. Look at India today, a cloud seven times its size blocking sunlight to others, losing their crop yields,and its CO2 causing warming and monsoon disruption, while the cooking fires' soot goes to the Arctic, darkens the snow and ice, increasing melt and sea level to its neighbor, Bangladesh, another overpopulated hell-hole.
Even "limited destruction" adds up over time, and much of India's soil is without any organics, where, without petro-chemical fertilizers, it would grow no food at all. Aquifers depleting, too, as rivers are saturated with human excrement pollution.
Industry should have been limited to non-depletion and non-pollution levels, and population, too. Crowds cause insanity, and destroy the environment. India is crowded, China is crowded, all cities are crowded, and many other areas are crowded too much. Too much consumption over resource recycling, regeneration or recharge, from too much demand by overpopulation and too much industrial use of fossil fuels and water, and surface water including the oceans. Depletion of soils, waters, fisheries, oil, and other resources, and pollution far beyond absorption levels in our soils, waters including oceans, and the very atmosphere to the point of malevolent climate change. Too many agrarian people would eventually do this too, by slash and burn agriculture, pollution from too much uncomposted trash and excrement, and seas full of sailing ships catching the last of the fish. In time.
Fossil fuels, industry, and technology, along with over-compassion and over-tolerance, and inability to see far ahead the consequences of their actions, along with over-breeding, stupidity, and greed, are all to blame for what has happened.
If humans would have stayed hunter gatherers without big spears or bows and arrows, they may not have started the Sixth Extinction. >>>If they had been wise with the use of technology, resources, breeding, agriculture, and industry, AND religions---they would have understood to stay within sustainability limits, in harmony with nature.<<< The Earth's population would have reached maybe a billion and stayed there.
People are too dumb on average, and too greedy. It is too bad that they pull down the minority that CAN live sustainably with them.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

We ARE limited to Earth. What is with you, Wayne? You used to be on the logical side, with the ecologists and most of the climatologists. A voice of reason, and often with good data and links. Maybe you need more anti-oxidants and B-vitamins.


No, we are CURRENTLY limited to one planet, but we have sufficient technology to begin colonization of the Moon and Mars if we had the direction. That technology shoud improve with time. With the advent of private space travel the probability of private colonies increases with each year. At some point the equation then changes to indicate the added growth potential.

No Wayne. This really is a bizarre idea. Some people have religion to hinge their hopes on and it seems you have hinged your hopes on science. You have an idea that is purely based on science and rationality and therefore ..... f@cked! Have you not seen where this line of so called reason and scientifically rational has placed us? (rhetorical question .....)

And what do you expect? A change in human nature that will trigger a divine intervention that will reverse the problems we have created? Or maybe science will find a way to reverse the problems, but that would be a very ironic hope for you. The only other option is the problems we created eliminate us as a species to allow the next species to evolve to this level a shot at it.

What are you up for Wayne? You better be able to face it because science isn't going to do it for us and moving the operation to Mars isn't either. What's left? it is very possible that the Earth will be tired of our shennanigans and wipe us out. That is exactly what we are facing. The Earth might come up with another species, and unless we can pull it together, we should wish that species love and fortitude.


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It's as if you would like us to take our problems to another planet and not expect those problems to uccur there too because we are now in a different geographical place.


Actually it would cause us to make some very important changes. You cannot be very wasteful in a colony with little resourses. You cannot terraform a planet like Mars and pollute it at the same time. So, yes moving to a new planet would force changes in our lifestyle.

Why not make those changes here and now? We have a perfectly good planet .... a very beautiful one. The demise of this planet should force some changes if we want to keep our domicile.


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It's as if you think the solutions to our problems is to take them to another place ..... and once we are there, our problems will be solved?


Just some of them and there would be new ones just as there has been throughout our history.

And then we would move to a different planet?


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You are missing the point entirely! You cannot take the problems you are having in Greece to Florida! We will always take our problems with us no matter where we are. Creating a "moon-base" might be plausiblle and hopeful and interesting .... but it is never a real solution.


I suppose extinction is the next best solution then ......

Extinction of our species .... Earth would survive and regenerate eventually ... given time.


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How do you relocate a crisis in consciousness? You can't. We can't. It is our crisis and we will bring it with us wherever we go .... Science cannot solve this for us Wayne. It is not the panacea. It may have SOME answers and it may have some part, but we are faced with a much wider recognizing ... a much more holistic perspective than your ultra male brain is capable of. (Had to throw that in .... because your thinking is male .... and getting old by the minute. Not that I have anything against male thinking. In fact, I love it! When well placed)


Just waiting for divine intervention then are we?

We ARE the divine intervention. There is no God and no Science that can help us now. It is up to us.



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You can't avoid it with scientific possibilities Wayne. Relocating our crisis to another planet will only relocate that very same crisis as if geographical place solves all.


No, there is little fossil fuels on either the Moon or Mars so that one problem goes away.

Okay. Do you see how weird this is getting? I can't even begin to answer this .....


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We cannot take our current understanding to another planet and not expect the same problems there as we have now. If we can't figure it our here .... how in the world are we going to figure it out there?


We have figured things out without remaining stagnant in one location and we can in the future if we survive. If we do not survive it does not matter to us anyway.

Wayne, most of us ARE concerned about how to create a sustainable Earth. This is our planet. This is the planet we live on. This is a beautiful planet.

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I don't care if it is scientifically possible because we have many scientifically proven solutions, but they are not solutions at all. If we can not even understand that we are connected HERE, and if we cannot figure this basic understanding out HERE, how are we going to figure it out THERE? We cannot solely depend on rationality and logic to dig us out of this mess because rationality is ONLY one arm


And the other is faith? Like the faith that opposes birth control because it was necessary to have a lot of children if a few were to survive at one point in our history?

Ummm .... no. What are you on about? Faith in what? Where does that come from? It's not about faith or hope ..... it's about us. There's nobody here but us chickens. We're it.


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If we can't figure it out in France how are we going to figure it out in Italy? If we can't figure it out on Earth, how are we going to figure it out on Mars or the Moon?


If it gives us extra time to figure it out and new views to assist, how exactly is that wrong?

It's not wrong or right .... but we have no time. The time is now!


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Aaaaugh! It is these same rationalities that lead you to believe GMO's are a plausible answer because they solve the immediate answers to our current problems.


Starvation is also a plausible answer to the same current problems, but not one I would like to make. There are no other plausible answers at this point.

Thank you for finally admitting it! There are NO plausible answers ... no GMO's, no going to Mars, no God, no scientific panacea. What we are left with is each other. Do you think we can do it? I think it's possible but not guaranteed. It depends on how we relate to each other and at this point it's about 50/50.


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Moving to the Moon would solve some problems..... as would GMO's ... Monsanto or otherwise. But they do not address the root problems and we must .....


So we ignore all of the problems that may kill many of us off to concentrate on what you believe is a more important problem? Thanks, but no.

No. We meet these problems head-on which means we stop considering nationalites as a reality because they are not. They have NEVER been a reality .... we made them up. We begin to actually see that we are one people living on one planet and we don't wait for religious and national belief systems to catch up with us, because leaders don't wait. You're a leader Wayne, I know you are! We see that every single person on this beautiful planet needs basics, such as food and water and shelter and we begin with ourselves .... shouting it from the roof tops because we know it is true and we are deeply concerned with truth. We do not ignore .... anything .... we do not agree to short sighted solutions because they are NOT solutions. We speak up against the old and tired so-called "solution" of war, because we know that there is no such thing as "us vs. them". Both "us" and "them" need food, water and shelter. We are one people living on one planet. We know that we must live together which means we must lead ourselves which means that we form and strengthen our existing communities and we do not rely on elected governments who are really just puppets acting in favor of multi-national corporations.

The game is up and that is really what the Occupy Movement was all about, and IS all about, because it it alive and well, .... still. It's going to be difficult but we must face it and the possibilty is that we MIGHT make it. We still have a chance and that possibilty must be in the here and now because there is not time .... no time for terminator seeds and no time for Mars.




_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein