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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:43 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
???? Are you denying the possibility of unconditional love in humans?

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No, I am denying the probability of unconditional love in humans.


If so, then I guess you would not see the possibility in other mammals. I am saying that I think it is possible ..... but i can't know for sure.


No, anything is possible. I could win both the two major US lotteries this week ... if I were actually to play them both would help, but it would still be possible to find both winning tickets and not be able to identify the original purchaser. That would be highly improbable, but still possible.

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Anything is possible but much fewer are probable.


I am simply saying that we do not know if dogs, or humans for that matter, can experience UL.


I am not in disagreement in that we do not know.

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True, but we do know of many cases where it is evidenced to not exist in either.


Unconditional love is much more difficult (maybe impossible) to measure than puncture wounds from a dog's teeth. It would largely go unnoticed. Where would we find evidence of something that is not tangible. We can find no evidence of it, but we can find evidence of it's opposite. It could only be anecdotal.


Yes, and would not any example of conditionality of that love not negate the claim for the person(s) involved for their lifetime, which would tend to make it even more difficult.

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Happy longest night of the year Wayne.


The same to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:54 pm 
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I'll give anyone unconditional love so long as they don't rat on me.

Don't take that the wrong way. Perves.


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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:04 am 
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Humans are naked apes and they will always use their major powerful weapon - brains. Do you like it or not, but we are curious and we make discoveries to better or worse for our own good. Rats are honorable, but why bed bugs are not? The world had been naturally designed before any animal rights ideology or religion were invented. Plague was brought with rats, but humans learned and survived. However, rats uare useful for experiments as well. Why not to use them, if they are so convenient and easily available?

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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:39 am 
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sevendogs wrote:
Humans are naked apes and they will always use their major powerful weapon - brains. Do you like it or not, but we are curious and we make discoveries to better or worse for our own good. Rats are honorable, but why bed bugs are not? The world had been naturally designed before any animal rights ideology or religion were invented. Plague was brought with rats, but humans learned and survived. However, rats uare useful for experiments as well. Why not to use them, if they are so convenient and easily available?


An apologist for vivisection?! That's all we need.
If vivisectionists knew the karmic consequences of vivisection, vivisection would be history by lunchtime...

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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:33 am 
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knightofalbion wrote:
sevendogs wrote:
Humans are naked apes and they will always use their major powerful weapon - brains. Do you like it or not, but we are curious and we make discoveries to better or worse for our own good. Rats are honorable, but why bed bugs are not? The world had been naturally designed before any animal rights ideology or religion were invented. Plague was brought with rats, but humans learned and survived. However, rats uare useful for experiments as well. Why not to use them, if they are so convenient and easily available?


An apologist for vivisection?! That's all we need.
If vivisectionists knew the karmic consequences of vivisection, vivisection would be history by lunchtime...


Holy chicken scratch! More research demonstrating the ability of other species' (could it be real?) ability to feel empathy ....

"The research demonstrated that hens possess a fundamental capacity to empathise, at least with their own chicks." And ... "The discovery has important implications for the welfare of farm and laboratory animals, say researchers."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... lieve.html

And yet, this information and research wil not make a "scratch" of difference in the lives of those animals which our society has chosen to warehouse in such deplorable conditions. We can't even get our heads straight about each other. We are forced to pay tremendous taxes for causes not of our liking ... dropping bombs on Iraqi civilians, selling 14.2 billion dollars worth of war toys to Saudi Arabia and then saying "YAY" to the GNP/GDP for creating jobs so we can buy goods from Walmart which were created in Chinese slave factories. Slipping and sliding down the rabbit hole! If we don't "get" what is hapening to Palestinian children, just for one example, how are we ever going to get birds?

But still, one step forward, ..... We are actually experiencing a crisis in consciousness and I'm not sure how we can truly evolve beyond this mess, but it seems we are making some steps, .... while slipping and sliding and falling into that hole.

"Under commercial conditions, chickens regularly encounter other birds showing signs of pain and distress ''owing to routine husbandry practices or because of the high prevalence of conditions such as bone fractures or leg disorders'', said the researchers."

High prevalence of bone fractures, etc ....... is not acceptable! Why anyone should accept such routine abuse is as mysterious as the acceptance of bone fractures in Palestinian children. If this is not a crisis in consciousness, then WTF is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:15 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
"Under commercial conditions, chickens regularly encounter other birds showing signs of pain and distress ''owing to routine husbandry practices or because of the high prevalence of conditions such as bone fractures or leg disorders'', said the researchers."

High prevalence of bone fractures, etc ....... is not acceptable! Why anyone should accept such routine abuse is as mysterious as the acceptance of bone fractures in Palestinian children. If this is not a crisis in consciousness, then WTF is it?


The biggest reason would be that fowl are not Palestinian children or even human children at all. The leap from reaction to stress in offspring to empathy is a significant one. The problem is the assumption of empathy can be clouded by the signals given by the chicks, which are much more vocal and much less experienced than adult fowl. That would tend to indicate a much greater incidence of "danger" cries which would cause a reaction. Instinctive warning is not empathy, however.

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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:16 pm 
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sevendogs wrote:
Humans are naked apes and they will always use their major powerful weapon - brains. Do you like it or not, but we are curious and we make discoveries to better or worse for our own good. Rats are honorable, but why bed bugs are not? The world had been naturally designed before any animal rights ideology or religion were invented. Plague was brought with rats, but humans learned and survived. However, rats uare useful for experiments as well. Why not to use them, if they are so convenient and easily available?


Plaque was brought with fleas. They just happened to find a friendly and comfy home with rats..

Rats are to humans as humans are to the earth.
mothy


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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
"Under commercial conditions, chickens regularly encounter other birds showing signs of pain and distress ''owing to routine husbandry practices or because of the high prevalence of conditions such as bone fractures or leg disorders'', said the researchers."

High prevalence of bone fractures, etc ....... is not acceptable! Why anyone should accept such routine abuse is as mysterious as the acceptance of bone fractures in Palestinian children. If this is not a crisis in consciousness, then WTF is it?


Quote:
The biggest reason


The biggest reason for what?


Quote:
would be that fowl are not Palestinian children or even human children at all.


Again, if we cannot even get our heads around what is happening to Palestinian children, and the number of bone fractures as well as other grave injuries experienced by them, how are we going to understand or care about birds?

Quote:
The leap from reaction to stress in offspring to empathy is a significant one. The problem is the assumption of empathy can be clouded by the signals given by the chicks, which are much more vocal and much less experienced than adult fowl. That would tend to indicate a much greater incidence of "danger" cries which would cause a reaction. Instinctive warning is not empathy, however.


The assumption of lack of empathy will ensure that danger cries in light of harm done and even if increased tenfold, will not make a "scratch" of difference in husbandry practises when profit is the bottom line.


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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:53 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
The assumption of lack of empathy will ensure that danger cries in light of harm done and even if increased tenfold, will not make a "scratch" of difference in husbandry practises when profit is the bottom line.


Assumption of existence without evidence is not logical nor is it scientifically correct. Empathy would be very difficult to prove to exist in any creature incapable of higher level of communication with us. The ten-fold increase of zero is still zero and still insignificant if the level approaches zero.

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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The assumption of lack of empathy will ensure that danger cries in light of harm done and even if increased tenfold, will not make a "scratch" of difference in husbandry practises when profit is the bottom line.


Assumption of existence without evidence is not logical nor is it scientifically correct. Empathy would be very difficult to prove to exist in any creature incapable of higher level of communication with us. The ten-fold increase of zero is still zero and still insignificant if the level approaches zero.


What do you mean by a "higher" communication and what creature is capable of a "higher" level of communication with us?


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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:46 pm 
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Tis not the question of higher but one of deeper.


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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:02 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The assumption of lack of empathy will ensure that danger cries in light of harm done and even if increased tenfold, will not make a "scratch" of difference in husbandry practises when profit is the bottom line.


Assumption of existence without evidence is not logical nor is it scientifically correct. Empathy would be very difficult to prove to exist in any creature incapable of higher level of communication with us. The ten-fold increase of zero is still zero and still insignificant if the level approaches zero.


What do you mean by a "higher" communication and what creature is capable of a "higher" level of communication with us?


To be able to communicate intangible ideas would be higher communication. To date there is no animal which has been able to communicate such concepts with humans, which is why there is no firm evidence of existence of empathy.

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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:03 am 
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mothy wrote:
Tis not the question of higher but one of deeper.



More advanced communication then ....

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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:11 am 
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Arn't you over intellectualising the concept of empathy when you should be using emotivity as a basis for your arguement?


Last edited by mothy on Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Love me, love my rat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:24 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
Tis not the question of higher but one of deeper.



More advanced communication then ....



The horse whisperer. Deep into the mind and look through the forgotten window..


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