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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:21 pm 
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What I'm not sure about are all animals void of morals. Morals are always related to character and human behaviour. But are they? Altruism exists in one species to another in certain cases. Altruism is the unselfish concern or dedication to the interests or welfare of others. Can that not be placed in the moral realm?


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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:33 pm 
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mothy wrote:
What I'm not sure about are all animals void of morals. Morals are always related to character and human behaviour. But are they? Altruism exists in one species to another in certain cases. Altruism is the unselfish concern or dedication to the interests or welfare of others. Can that not be placed in the moral realm?



Ask that of the next Grizzly bear which is chewing on your hamstring or is lapping up the last of Bambi's blood from the rocks where the bear caved in it's head.

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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Donnie Mac Leod wrote:
mothy wrote:
What I'm not sure about are all animals void of morals. Morals are always related to character and human behaviour. But are they? Altruism exists in one species to another in certain cases. Altruism is the unselfish concern or dedication to the interests or welfare of others. Can that not be placed in the moral realm?



Ask that of the next Grizzly bear which is chewing on your hamstring or is lapping up the last of Bambi's blood from the rocks where the bear caved in it's head.



I am referring to one example and you another from the other side of the spectrum.

My mother cat who is soft as clarts sat next to a baby bird in protective form that one of her daughters had brought in. The baby bird seemed quite relaxed as mother cat sat peacefully next to her.

And don't patronize with examples of bambi. You clearly have misguided mental missiles as I am here for the welfare of the slug aswell.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it. :-

To all those omnivores who are against halal/kosher ](*,) and I don't mean that on a superficial level either!


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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:15 pm 
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mothy wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
Do we really create morals or are they an inherently conscious phenomenon directed at what we perceive as wrong.


They do not exist outside of our civilized creation.

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There are many conflicting reports whether halal/kosher are good practices or bad.


That is now and based on the biased AR views of the present time, but too many forget both were created thousands of years ago to ensure the better slaughter methods were followed.



If it's based purely on the AR views why is it an accepted practice seen as more humane to stun the animals prior to slitting the throats over here in the occident.


Not such a general claim according to this expert.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/welfare.d ... attle.html

Quote:
Eeg results seem to show no pain following the slitting in the Halal/Kosher method but that still leaves 3 to 4 minutes if the animal is conscious .


No, it does not. With the viens and arteries to the brain severed there cannot be 3 to 4 minutes of consciousness. Brain cells are alrady dying in that amount of time so the activity cannot remain.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.bo ... ility.html

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The pro Hala /Kosher sites state the animals are surrendered unconscious within seconds of slitting so long as the cut was deep enough to cut the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides together with the trachea and esophagus. There was no recording on the eeg scan therafter. BOLLOCKS!


So you choose to believe based on your beliefs and not the evidence ..... that does not make your belief any more correct, but it does make it harder to convince you of anything you do not already believe.

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Of course it is not like religious types to deceive is it?!!


Nor is it like the pro-Ar types to deceive us either? :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_hSg-npPnw

Care to provide some real references for the claims made in the video? Maybe an actual scientific study rather than clear assumptions.

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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:18 pm 
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mothy wrote:
What I'm not sure about are all animals void of morals. Morals are always related to character and human behaviour. But are they? Altruism exists in one species to another in certain cases. Altruism is the unselfish concern or dedication to the interests or welfare of others. Can that not be placed in the moral realm?


To take anecdotal instances to try to build a case of possible quasi-morals in animals is really too much of a leap of faith to consider as the basis for a discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:03 pm 
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I find it difficult to engage in an interlocution or written debate of this nature as I am against the slaughter period. Obviously the slaughter will continue so it is a case of the best method possible. The science of the Halal method may well be right but like the stunning process the killing is on such a vast scale, 72 million animals per day (both combined) according to one report, that the procedure will not be carried in the accordance of the humane requirements in what is an incalculable number.


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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:06 pm 
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mothy wrote:
I find it difficult to engage in an interlocution or written debate of this nature as I am against the slaughter period.


That is very clear.

Quote:
Obviously the slaughter will continue so it is a case of the best method possible. The science of the Halal method may well be right but like the stunning process the killing is on such a vast scale, 72 million animals per day (both combined) according to one report, that the procedure will not be carried in the accordance of the humane requirements in what is an incalculable number.


Why not? You cannot guarantee 100% of the instances will be perfectly humane due to the numbers, but the percentage of failures can be very, very low with proper procedures and established protocols.

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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
I find it difficult to engage in an interlocution or written debate of this nature as I am against the slaughter period.


That is very clear.

Quote:
Obviously the slaughter will continue so it is a case of the best method possible. The science of the Halal method may well be right but like the stunning process the killing is on such a vast scale, 72 million animals per day (both combined) according to one report, that the procedure will not be carried in the accordance of the humane requirements in what is an incalculable number.


Why not? You cannot guarantee 100% of the instances will be perfectly humane due to the numbers, but the percentage of failures can be very, very low with proper procedures and established protocols.


Are you assuming proper procedures are adhered to on a satisfactory level? Are you deliberately burying your head in the sand when it comes to the undercover videos that have showed blatant mal practice and abuse? One abuse is one too many in my world.


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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:34 pm 
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mothy wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
I find it difficult to engage in an interlocution or written debate of this nature as I am against the slaughter period.


That is very clear.

Quote:
Obviously the slaughter will continue so it is a case of the best method possible. The science of the Halal method may well be right but like the stunning process the killing is on such a vast scale, 72 million animals per day (both combined) according to one report, that the procedure will not be carried in the accordance of the humane requirements in what is an incalculable number.


Why not? You cannot guarantee 100% of the instances will be perfectly humane due to the numbers, but the percentage of failures can be very, very low with proper procedures and established protocols.


Are you assuming proper procedures are adhered to on a satisfactory level?


No, I am assuming the inspections and oversight of the procedures will illumuninate any shortfalls in those procedures, especially since they are based on religions and that compliance is another strong reason.

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Are you deliberately burying your head in the sand when it comes to the undercover videos that have showed blatant mal practice and abuse?


No, nor do I take them at face value given the number of "undercover videos" which have been discovered to be frauds, staged, or edited in such a manner to imply what is not there. It seems you believe them regardless of the history of such things.

I notice there is still no supporting evidence for the claims of cattle remaining conscious for minutes after having their head nearly severed from their body while I have provided evidence of the majority of the animals documented in studies were gone in seconds rather than minutes.

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One abuse is one too many in my world.


You live an a fantasy world then, as you will never get to where there is no abuse without removing humans completely. In fact, I suspect anyone can be found to have "abused" an animal using the criteria of someone else if they look hard enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:56 pm 
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You seem quick in implying the videos are are staged. Is that all of them? Are you hoping that they are are all such in easing a guilty conscience? Perhaps you really have no conscience or maybes deeper issues when concerning animals. Do you hope these videos are fake or staged or manipulated so you can live a guilt-free diet, or do you really care?
You obviously conceded in earlier deliberation that factory/farm animals have no right to endure a life that will end naturally thanks to your desire to eat them. Does that make you a bully? Or top of the food chain where choices amongst the animal kingdom are in abundance thanks to your selfish dominion. I suppose the seal cull is staged in your mind!

http://www.animalfreedom.org/video/videos.html

Sure I'm emotive on this topic.

If more people were emotive than pertaining to their selfish desires maybes this world might just be a better place to live in.

Provided evidence where animals were gone in seconds? You merely googled the appropriate web page and assumed it to be true.


Last edited by mothy on Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:18 pm 
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mothy wrote:
You seem quick in implying the videos are are staged. Is that all of them?


No, but there have been several which have been found to be staged, more of which have been found to be edited, and others which have refused to turn over the unedited video.

Quote:
Are you hoping that they are are all such in easing a guilty conscience?


No, just dealing with the fact that many have been and without further information/investigation there is no way to know whether the video is true or representative of what it claims.

Quote:
Perhaps you really have no conscience or maybes deeper issues when concerning animals.


No, I have a conscience and a desire to discover the truth rather than blindly take any video for granted in such a case.

Quote:
Do you hope these videos are fake or staged or manipulated so you can live a guilt-free diet, or do you really care?


I have a guilt free diet. I only care whether the video is real or faked to know whether there needed to be a corrective action undertaken in that regard.

Quote:
You obviously conceded in earlier deliberation that factory/farm animals have no right to endure a life that will end naturally thanks to your desire to eat them.


Their life does end naturally for a domestic animal raised to be consumed just as a wild animal's life may end naturally at the hands of another predator.

Quote:
Does that make you a bully?


Not in my mind. In the mind of some others, maybe so.


Quote:
Or top of the food chain where choices amongst the animal kingdom are in abundance thanks to your selfish dominion.


I am near the top of the food chain, however there are animals which would gladly eat me as well, if given the chance.

Quote:
I suppose the seal cull is staged in your mind!


No, but some of the confrontations are.

Quote:
http://www.animalfreedom.org/video/videos.html

Sure I'm emotive on this topic.


Clearly.

Quote:
If more people were emotive than pertaining to their selfish desires maybes this world might just be a better place to live in.


So your way is better than anyone else's just because you feel it is that way? Maybe the world would not be a better place if people were more emotive.

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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
You seem quick in implying the videos are are staged. Is that all of them?


No, but there have been several which have been found to be staged, more of which have been found to be edited, and others which have refused to turn over the unedited video.

Quote:
Are you hoping that they are are all such in easing a guilty conscience?


No, just dealing with the fact that many have been and without further information/investigation there is no way to know whether the video is true or representative of what it claims.

Quote:
Perhaps you really have no conscience or maybes deeper issues when concerning animals.


No, I have a conscience and a desire to discover the truth rather than blindly take any video for granted in such a case.

Quote:
Do you hope these videos are fake or staged or manipulated so you can live a guilt-free diet, or do you really care?


I have a guilt free diet. I only care whether the video is real or faked to know whether there needed to be a corrective action undertaken in that regard.

Quote:
You obviously conceded in earlier deliberation that factory/farm animals have no right to endure a life that will end naturally thanks to your desire to eat them.


Their life does end naturally for a domestic animal raised to be consumed just as a wild animal's life may end naturally at the hands of another predator.

Quote:
Does that make you a bully?


Not in my mind. In the mind of some others, maybe so.


Quote:
Or top of the food chain where choices amongst the animal kingdom are in abundance thanks to your selfish dominion.


I am near the top of the food chain, however there are animals which would gladly eat me as well, if given the chance.

Quote:
I suppose the seal cull is staged in your mind!


No, but some of the confrontations are.

Quote:
http://www.animalfreedom.org/video/videos.html

Sure I'm emotive on this topic.


Clearly.

Quote:
If more people were emotive than pertaining to their selfish desires maybes this world might just be a better place to live in.


So your way is better than anyone else's just because you feel it is that way? Maybe the world would not be a better place if people were more emotive.


I never suggested my way was better only might be.

Trying to envisage a world which outbalances emotion as opposed to intellect or vice versa it is difficult so comprehend which would be most beneficial for the human mind perhaps a fine balance is what is needed.

Animals that would not hesitate eating you do not have the morals you inherently have even though you clearly do not display them in relation to farm animals longevity.

Confrontations with the seal cull? 'Hey mr.Seal Culler I will give you 50 pounds if you put your fists upto me when I confront you'. What do you mean by that?

You blindly take no video for granted but you do a web page?

The callousness of nature is revealed when nature sees nature as food, otherwise everything acts in harmony. Harmony in food I hear you cry? Harmony in death I see you die.

mothy.


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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:46 pm 
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mothy wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
You seem quick in implying the videos are are staged. Is that all of them?


No, but there have been several which have been found to be staged, more of which have been found to be edited, and others which have refused to turn over the unedited video.

Quote:
Are you hoping that they are are all such in easing a guilty conscience?


No, just dealing with the fact that many have been and without further information/investigation there is no way to know whether the video is true or representative of what it claims.

Quote:
Perhaps you really have no conscience or maybes deeper issues when concerning animals.


No, I have a conscience and a desire to discover the truth rather than blindly take any video for granted in such a case.

Quote:
Do you hope these videos are fake or staged or manipulated so you can live a guilt-free diet, or do you really care?


I have a guilt free diet. I only care whether the video is real or faked to know whether there needed to be a corrective action undertaken in that regard.

Quote:
You obviously conceded in earlier deliberation that factory/farm animals have no right to endure a life that will end naturally thanks to your desire to eat them.


Their life does end naturally for a domestic animal raised to be consumed just as a wild animal's life may end naturally at the hands of another predator.

Quote:
Does that make you a bully?


Not in my mind. In the mind of some others, maybe so.


Quote:
Or top of the food chain where choices amongst the animal kingdom are in abundance thanks to your selfish dominion.


I am near the top of the food chain, however there are animals which would gladly eat me as well, if given the chance.

Quote:
I suppose the seal cull is staged in your mind!


No, but some of the confrontations are.

Quote:
http://www.animalfreedom.org/video/videos.html

Sure I'm emotive on this topic.


Clearly.

Quote:
If more people were emotive than pertaining to their selfish desires maybes this world might just be a better place to live in.


So your way is better than anyone else's just because you feel it is that way? Maybe the world would not be a better place if people were more emotive.


I never suggested my way was better only might be.


So change might not be any better and thus the cost/benefit ratio for change is not that good.

Quote:
Trying to envisage a world which outbalances emotion as opposed to intellect or vice versa it is difficult so comprehend which would be most beneficial for the human mind perhaps a fine balance is what is needed.


Or not ..... if we do not know a blind romp into change seems to be a more dangerous track than not given the wealth of known data.

Quote:
Animals that would not hesitate eating you do not have the morals you inherently have even though you clearly do not display them in relation to farm animals longevity.


Sure I do. I try to ensure the animals are killed in as humane a method as possible, which is far more moral than the natural predators are.

Quote:
Confrontations with the seal cull? 'Hey mr.Seal Culler I will give you 50 pounds if you put your fists upto me when I confront you'. What do you mean by that?


The claims of cruelty which are not supported by factual evidence and the provocation in an attempt to cause a confrontation as you described.

Quote:
You blindly take no video for granted but you do a web page?


No, I have a long history of Dr. Grandin's work, but the website is very easy to provide as a reference.

Quote:
The callousness of nature is revealed when nature sees nature as food, otherwise everything acts in harmony. Harmony in food I hear you cry? Harmony in death I see you die.


Everything dies and everything is eaten by something else, but somethings will start to eat others before they are dead. There is harmony just not morality.

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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Your answers have led me to believe you are a healthy sane and balanced human being.

As a matter of interest what do you believe in the respect of Chinese fur farms skinning the animals alive?


You cannot solve a problem with the mindset that created it.

Einstein.

We live in fear of having no work and when there is no work we live in fear.

Mothy.

Lets not forget 11:11 Matthew.

I tell you this: never has there appeared on earth a mother's son greater than John the Baptist, and yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

The bible is hot on numbers, even has a chronicle on numbers. Watch out for 1:11 11:11


Are you seeing them? O:)

Take care.

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Love under will.

If you concentrate too much on the banana slide then the other playground attractions will pass you by.

Mothy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sTP0uzCX_A

Listen to children for they will remind us what we have forgotten.

Mothy.


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 Post subject: Re: Pig
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:04 am 
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mothy wrote:
Your answers have led me to believe you are a healthy sane and balanced human being.


Thank you, I think ..... :mrgreen:

Quote:
As a matter of interest what do you believe in the respect of Chinese fur farms skinning the animals alive?


They do not. It takes longer, has a greater risk of injury to the person, and therefore makes no sense to do. The videos supposedly showing the act are some of the ones considered to be staged because the information surrounding the video is withheld so no verification is possible.


Quote:
You cannot solve a problem with the mindset that created it.

Einstein.

We live in fear of having no work and when there is no work we live in fear.


There is always work to do, but the work may not pay in money or pay in an immediate timeframe.



Quote:
Lets not forget 11:11 Matthew.

I tell you this: never has there appeared on earth a mother's son greater than John the Baptist, and yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Some may disagree in the case of a man known as Jesus or one known as Muhammad (or Mohammad, or Mohammed, or Muhammed) .... O:) :-k

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