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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:14 pm 
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We ARE limited to Earth. What is with you, Wayne? You used to be on the logical side, with the ecologists and most of the climatologists. A voice of reason, and often with good data and links. Maybe you need more anti-oxidants and B-vitamins.


Not unless we make the choice to be limited. We have the technology to build a sustainable colony on either the Moon or Mars at this time. The costs would be huge, of course, but we have that ability.


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No, we are CURRENTLY limited to one planet, but we have sufficient technology to begin colonization of the Moon and Mars if we had the direction. That technology shoud improve with time. With the advent of private space travel the probability of private colonies increases with each year. At some point the equation then changes to indicate the added growth potential.


No Wayne. This really is a bizarre idea. Some people have religion to hinge their hopes on and it seems you have hinged your hopes on science. You have an idea that is purely based on science and rationality and therefore ..... f@cked! Have you not seen where this line of so called reason and scientifically rational has placed us? (rhetorical question .....)


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And what do you expect? A change in human nature that will trigger a divine intervention that will reverse the problems we have created? Or maybe science will find a way to reverse the problems, but that would be a very ironic hope for you. The only other option is the problems we created eliminate us as a species to allow the next species to evolve to this level a shot at it.


What are you up for Wayne? You better be able to face it because science isn't going to do it for us and moving the operation to Mars isn't either. What's left? it is very possible that the Earth will be tired of our shennanigans and wipe us out. That is exactly what we are facing. The Earth might come up with another species, and unless we can pull it together, we should wish that species love and fortitude.


If we are no longer only on the Earth, that would be a moot point.

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It's as if you would like us to take our problems to another planet and not expect those problems to uccur there too because we are now in a different geographical place.


Actually it would cause us to make some very important changes. You cannot be very wasteful in a colony with little resourses. You cannot terraform a planet like Mars and pollute it at the same time. So, yes moving to a new planet would force changes in our lifestyle.


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Why not make those changes here and now? We have a perfectly good planet .... a very beautiful one. The demise of this planet should force some changes if we want to keep our domicile.


We could, but there is nothing to force such a change like there is in the situation I described, which means there will be more opposition to the change here.

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It's as if you think the solutions to our problems is to take them to another place ..... and once we are there, our problems will be solved?


Just some of them and there would be new ones just as there has been throughout our history.


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And then we would move to a different planet?


Maybe a lot of new planets and new solutions to new problems for all.

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You are missing the point entirely! You cannot take the problems you are having in Greece to Florida! We will always take our problems with us no matter where we are. Creating a "moon-base" might be plausiblle and hopeful and interesting .... but it is never a real solution.


I suppose extinction is the next best solution then ......


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Extinction of our species .... Earth would survive and regenerate eventually ... given time.


Yes, it would, but most rational people do not want their species to becoem extinct.

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How do you relocate a crisis in consciousness? You can't. We can't. It is our crisis and we will bring it with us wherever we go .... Science cannot solve this for us Wayne. It is not the panacea. It may have SOME answers and it may have some part, but we are faced with a much wider recognizing ... a much more holistic perspective than your ultra male brain is capable of. (Had to throw that in .... because your thinking is male .... and getting old by the minute. Not that I have anything against male thinking. In fact, I love it! When well placed)


Just waiting for divine intervention then are we?


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We ARE the divine intervention. There is no God and no Science that can help us now. It is up to us.


Then we are going extinct.


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You can't avoid it with scientific possibilities Wayne. Relocating our crisis to another planet will only relocate that very same crisis as if geographical place solves all.


No, there is little fossil fuels on either the Moon or Mars so that one problem goes away.


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Okay. Do you see how weird this is getting? I can't even begin to answer this .....


How wierd? I point out the problems that cannot follow and you cannot deal with that why? Issues such as fossil fuels will go away on a colony on another planet, which will force the use of other energy methods, and in turn increase the efficiency of the methods used. That technology can then be applied to other areas such as the Earth.

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We cannot take our current understanding to another planet and not expect the same problems there as we have now. If we can't figure it our here .... how in the world are we going to figure it out there?


We have figured things out without remaining stagnant in one location and we can in the future if we survive. If we do not survive it does not matter to us anyway.


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Wayne, most of us ARE concerned about how to create a sustainable Earth. This is our planet. This is the planet we live on. This is a beautiful planet.


It is also a home with a finite life span regardless of what we do. It may still be a very long span at this point but still finite and unless we are to be finite as a species we need to progress outward.

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I don't care if it is scientifically possible because we have many scientifically proven solutions, but they are not solutions at all. If we can not even understand that we are connected HERE, and if we cannot figure this basic understanding out HERE, how are we going to figure it out THERE? We cannot solely depend on rationality and logic to dig us out of this mess because rationality is ONLY one arm


And the other is faith? Like the faith that opposes birth control because it was necessary to have a lot of children if a few were to survive at one point in our history?


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Ummm .... no. What are you on about? Faith in what?


Religions are the areas solely dependent on faith.

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Where does that come from? It's not about faith or hope ..... it's about us. There's nobody here but us chickens. We're it.


Then what is there but rationality and science if we are all there is? Assuming, of course, there are no life forms outside of our own elsewhere and there is no greater science base than ours.

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If we can't figure it out in France how are we going to figure it out in Italy? If we can't figure it out on Earth, how are we going to figure it out on Mars or the Moon?


If it gives us extra time to figure it out and new views to assist, how exactly is that wrong?


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It's not wrong or right .... but we have no time. The time is now!


If we move out to other planets we do have more time in which to find solutions.

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Aaaaugh! It is these same rationalities that lead you to believe GMO's are a plausible answer because they solve the immediate answers to our current problems.


Starvation is also a plausible answer to the same current problems, but not one I would like to make. There are no other plausible answers at this point.



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Thank you for finally admitting it!


Admitting starvation is not a plausible solution? Sure.

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There are NO plausible answers


Actually, there are but you just want to ignore them.

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... no GMO's,


They are plausible just those like yourself oppose them because change is scary.

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no going to Mars,


It is plausible, expensive, but plausible.

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no God,


That is one the religions will have to take up.

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no scientific panacea.


Actually, there are many scientific solutions possible.

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What we are left with is each other. Do you think we can do it? I think it's possible but not guaranteed. It depends on how we relate to each other and at this point it's about 50/50.


What do we do with each other? No scieince just sitting around singing beside a fire or something?

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Moving to the Moon would solve some problems..... as would GMO's ... Monsanto or otherwise. But they do not address the root problems and we must .....


So we ignore all of the problems that may kill many of us off to concentrate on what you believe is a more important problem? Thanks, but no.


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No. We meet these problems head-on which means we stop considering nationalites as a reality because they are not. They have NEVER been a reality .... we made them up. We begin to actually see that we are one people living on one planet and we don't wait for religious and national belief systems to catch up with us, because leaders don't wait. You're a leader Wayne, I know you are! We see that every single person on this beautiful planet needs basics, such as food and water and shelter and we begin with ourselves .... shouting it from the roof tops because we know it is true and we are deeply concerned with truth. We do not ignore .... anything .... we do not agree to short sighted solutions because they are NOT solutions. We speak up against the old and tired so-called "solution" of war, because we know that there is no such thing as "us vs. them". Both "us" and "them" need food, water and shelter. We are one people living on one planet. We know that we must live together which means we must lead ourselves which means that we form and strengthen our existing communities and we do not rely on elected governments who are really just puppets acting in favor of multi-national corporations.


Good luck with making that change in systems BEFORE we can begin to address the problems being discussed.

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The game is up and that is really what the Occupy Movement was all about, and IS all about, because it it alive and well, .... still. It's going to be difficult but we must face it and the possibilty is that we MIGHT make it. We still have a chance and that possibilty must be in the here and now because there is not time .... no time for terminator seeds and no time for Mars.


No time for all but the solutions you hope to see? Not time for them if they cannot be done in time either.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:10 pm 
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So when are we moving to a new planet......what is the date of departure and what is the address of planet?????

Are we going to Moon or Mars????.........Our present planet had huge amounts of things that created and sustained all life..........Millions of species of Animals, Trillions of acres of Forests, Rivers and Oceans full of water, Sky full of Air and Trillions of acres of fertile soil......And remember all these life sustaining things did not come into existence in a few years......It took Nature millions of years to painstakingly create them.

After destroying most of the living things and most of the life sustaining things on earth which took millions of years to come into existence, it is ridiculous to talk about creating human colonies on planets where there are no animals, trees, air, water and fertile soil........And where Temperatures are very different from earth.

One Space Shuttle exploded during take off.....another exploded on the return journey......so far Man has not gone beyond the Moon, and even on this short journey of a few days man took all his supplies - food, water and oxygen from earth......there are no planets with life sustaining things within the solar system......outside the solar system planets are light years away, millions of light years away.

Moving to another planet would probably rank as the most impossible of all impossible things.

People talk about the dangers of religion and call it an evil. It is true that religion has led to war, violence and hatred.......but it is still a pygmy compared to the greatest evils......science, technology and industrialization that have destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth in just 250 years after industrialization.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment


Last edited by sushilydv on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:43 pm 
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The first base would probably be on the Moon with the first planet colony on Mars. When depends on just how much pressure we get from the Earth-bound issues.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
The first base would probably be on the Moon with the first planet colony on Mars. When depends on just how much pressure we get from the Earth-bound issues.


Our present planet had huge amounts of things that created and sustained all life..........Millions of species of Animals, Trillions of acres of Forests, Rivers and Oceans full of water, Sky full of Air and Trillions of acres of fertile soil......And remember all these life sustaining things did not come into existence in a few years......It took Nature millions of years to painstakingly create them.

After destroying most of the living things and most of the life sustaining things on earth which took millions of years to come into existence, it is ridiculous to talk about creating human colonies on planets where there are no animals, trees, air, water and fertile soil........And where Temperatures are very different from earth.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:20 am 
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sushilydv wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
The first base would probably be on the Moon with the first planet colony on Mars. When depends on just how much pressure we get from the Earth-bound issues.


Our present planet had huge amounts of things that created and sustained all life..........Millions of species of Animals, Trillions of acres of Forests, Rivers and Oceans full of water, Sky full of Air and Trillions of acres of fertile soil......And remember all these life sustaining things did not come into existence in a few years......It took Nature millions of years to painstakingly create them.


The planet still has these things, just not quite as many now.

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After destroying most of the living things and most of the life sustaining things on earth which took millions of years to come into existence, it is ridiculous to talk about creating human colonies on planets where there are no animals, trees, air, water and fertile soil........And where Temperatures are very different from earth.


Both the Moon and Mars have water, which is important for an initial base. With water and the materials present air, soil, vegetation, and eventually animals could be introduced. The Moon would be less likely as it would be more suited for a smaller manufacturing and mining facility. Mars could be a large scale colony within the solar system. Outside of the solar system there are many possibilities. A few generational ships and we would be spread to the stars. Whether we thrive, survive, or die will depend on how well we adapt.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:35 am 
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The solutions are available right here on earth......not on some other planet.

Nature has already done millions of years of research on sustainability.

Nature has already given us millions of years of proof of sustainability.

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years [compared to Industrial Society]because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods and Services must stop immediately.......It should not continue for even one more day......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.


Last edited by sushilydv on Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:52 am 
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sushilydv wrote:
The solutions are available right here on earth......not on some other planet.

Nature has already done millions of years of research on sustainability.......Nature has already given us millions of years of proof of sustainability.


Except for those periods of regional and mass extinctions.


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Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.


They do destroy their environment at times. The predator population can grow too large and cause the prey to be eliminated thereby causing a kill off. Herbivores can overgraze an area and kill off their own food supply. It is generally not widespread to our knowledge, but we have only been watching for a relatively short time given the time frame referenced.

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Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.


They did something to kill themselves off at times though.

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Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years [compared to Industrial Society].......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.


As in Easter Island, perhaps?

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Industrial Society has destroyed almost all Environment in just 250 years......because it is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.


Not even close. We have damaged a lot of the environment, but not destroyed it.

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Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods and Services must stop immediately.......It should not continue for even one more day......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.


I wish you luck in getting that accepted.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:40 am 
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.....

In the course of my postings on the net I have come across some absurd replies.......but very few as nonsensical as these.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:51 am 
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sushilydv wrote:
.....

In the course of my postings on the net I have come across some absurd replies.......but very few as nonsensical as these.


So facts are nonsensical now? :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:26 pm 
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For the last 50 years Intellectuals have been debating what is good for Environment......Capitalist Industrial Society, Communist Industrial Society or Socialist Industrial Society?

This is like debating what is good for people.....Capitalist Poison, Communist Poison or Socialist Poison.

Poison kills people.....it does'nt matter who made it ......Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

Industrial Activity kills ecosystems.....It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

All Industrial Activity destroys environment......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network and Shipping Lanes…..they all destroy environment….. It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

American Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems…..Russian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems……Chinese Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems…….Indian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems……Every Industrial Society destroys ecosystems…… It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

In just 250 years Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Forests, Wild Animals and Fish Population......Population of Lions, Tigers and Elephants is down to 2 - 5% of what it was 100 years ago......Population of Large Fish in Oceans is down to 10% of what it was 100 years ago.....Industrial Society has poisoned the entire planet with Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste.....It has killed Trillions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of acres of Fertile Soil with Cement And Concrete.

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years[compared to Industrial Society].......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed almost all Ecosystems in just 250 years......because it is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter......And even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment


Last edited by sushilydv on Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Repeating a circular logic does not make it any more correct. Your generalizations are a bit over simplified to be correct.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment? Oh, I get it! Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment!
=D> #-o

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:06 pm 
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We can only really speak for ourselves. Industrial Society has destroyed Sushilydv's mind and environment. People from India tend to be crowd tolerant and not see overpopulation as the root cause of increased industrialization with environmental depletion and destruction from pollution. It could be said that initial industrialization with the advent of fossil fuel use, and technology were the stimulus to the population increase. More food, less deaths as medicine got better, deep wells tapping fossil water, all increasing with the demands of a growing overpopulation. People did not adjust their reproduction to the new reality of longer lifespans and much less infant mortality. Wars also became less able to keep population in check and began to be negative evolutionary. The people least likely to understand the concepts of sustainability are the ones reproducing the most, with more negative evolutionary results. Those with the positive trait of crowd intolerance have fewer kids and move to less crowded areas until there are few left. Others with the trait who can not get out of the city, have an increased rate of anxiety and depressive illnesses, as evidenced in pharm chemical pollution in our waterways including birth control hormones. Mercury and its effects are a concern in many areas, and especially in seafood.
Research from Murtaugh and Schlax at Oregon State University shows that a hypothetical American woman who switches to a more fuel-efficient car, drives less, recycles, installs more efficient light bulbs, and replaces her refrigerator and windows with energy-saving models, would increase her carbon legacy by 40 times if she has two children.
There are far too many people on Earth for even an all agrarian sustainable society. There are far too many for even a world wide one child by force policy to prevent the inevitable rapid die-off of most of the human population of Earth, taking with it 25% of species. Continued fossil fuel burning until then guarantees passing the methane hydrate self release tipping points and a thermal maximum event in a short time geologically, with the completion of the Sixth Great Extinction already begun at the beginning of this interglacial epoch. This "event" will cause a species bottleneck of around 200K years with a cessation of the ice age cycle until then. It will take between 2 and 3 million years before species are as abundant as they were 12K years ago. All caused by one species---humans. The last time one species did something so drastic was when cyanobacteria brought the O2 level up to 20+%. That may have been a group of similar species, and if it didn't happen, then there never would have been humans, or dinosaurs.
Knowing does not cause insanity, although there is sometimes a sadness for the loss of a future for intelligent, strong people that will never be. A sadness for the people that will live in this time of madness around mid century or before.
I just go and play blues guitar.

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Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
A sadness for the people that will live in this time of madness around mid century or before.
I just go and play blues guitar.


True, but you think it will be the end of humanity? I don't. Assuming we don't lose substantial technologies through war, what we have now remains available to a smaller, probably more intelligent bunch. Could be the best thing that ever happened to us.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:53 pm 
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There is only one cause of environmental destruction......Industrialization.

Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are only consequences/ by-products of Industrialization.

Overconsumerism is quite obviously a consequence of Industrialization..... Industrial consumer goods and services would not exist without Industrial Activity.

Overpopulation is also a by-product of Industrialization. The entire world was overbreeding until the middle years of 20th century.....even Western Countries had 5 - 12 children per family[and even more].....and yet population of the world remained low before industrialization because of high death rate, lower life span and shortage of food and water. It was only 1 billion in 1800 AD. India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago, since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions. What was the population of Europe/ America/ West 2000 years ago????......Was it comparable to eastern population of India and China????

Industrialization is the cause of overpopulation and overconsumerism.

Moreover, Environment has been destroyed by Industrialization/ Consumerism…….Not by Population/ Overpopulation.

Total World Population has not increased ……It has decreased……In fact total world population has been decimated.

When we talk of population we should take into account population of all animal species, not just human population.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species……Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of animal species. The total burden of population on this planet has not increased…..It has decreased.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of other species.....but there was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....and we don't even need to include smaller animals in this count.....the combined population of big animals alone whose size and weight was equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than current human population of 7 billion.

The amount of food this animal population was eating was much greater than the food consumed by humans today.......Yet millions of animal species did not destroy environment and lived sustainably on earth for millions of years......because they destroyed environment only for food and not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

If animals had started a consumerist "Industrial Society" millions of years ago they would have destroyed all ecosystems millions of years ago.

The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

What is the cause of human overpopulation??????......It is Industrialization......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion today ........In the absence of Industrialization world population would only be a small fraction of 7 billion today.

It is not population that destroys environment......It is lifestyle.......The combined population of millions of animal species was much greater than present human population.......and yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years because they destroyed environment only for Food.......not for Thousands of Consumer Goods.

The cause of Environmental Destruction is Industrialization / Consumerism.........Not population / overpopulation.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would not destroy environment [And a Hunter_Gatherer Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would cause much lesser environmental destruction than an Industrial Society of 7 billion [And an Agrarian Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

Industrialization is the cause of Human Overpopulation and Overconsumerism

It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.

Height of Insanity!

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment


Last edited by sushilydv on Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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