EnviroLink Forum

Not unless we make the choice to be limited. We have the technology to build a sustainable colony on either the Moon or Mars at this time. The costs would be huge, of course, but we have that ability.






If we are no longer only on the Earth, that would be a moot point.

Quote:





We could, but there is nothing to force such a change like there is in the situation I described, which means there will be more opposition to the change here.





Maybe a lot of new planets and new solutions to new problems for all.





Yes, it would, but most rational people do not want their species to becoem extinct.





Then we are going extinct.






How wierd? I point out the problems that cannot follow and you cannot deal with that why? Issues such as fossil fuels will go away on a colony on another planet, which will force the use of other energy methods, and in turn increase the efficiency of the methods used. That technology can then be applied to other areas such as the Earth.





It is also a home with a finite life span regardless of what we do. It may still be a very long span at this point but still finite and unless we are to be finite as a species we need to progress outward.





Religions are the areas solely dependent on faith.



Then what is there but rationality and science if we are all there is? Assuming, of course, there are no life forms outside of our own elsewhere and there is no greater science base than ours.





If we move out to other planets we do have more time in which to find solutions.






Admitting starvation is not a plausible solution? Sure.



Actually, there are but you just want to ignore them.



They are plausible just those like yourself oppose them because change is scary.



It is plausible, expensive, but plausible.



That is one the religions will have to take up.



Actually, there are many scientific solutions possible.



What do we do with each other? No scieince just sitting around singing beside a fire or something?





Good luck with making that change in systems BEFORE we can begin to address the problems being discussed.



No time for all but the solutions you hope to see? Not time for them if they cannot be done in time either.

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With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

So when are we moving to a new planet......what is the date of departure and what is the address of planet?????

Are we going to Moon or Mars????.........Our present planet had huge amounts of things that created and sustained all life..........Millions of species of Animals, Trillions of acres of Forests, Rivers and Oceans full of water, Sky full of Air and Trillions of acres of fertile soil......And remember all these life sustaining things did not come into existence in a few years......It took Nature millions of years to painstakingly create them.

After destroying most of the living things and most of the life sustaining things on earth which took millions of years to come into existence, it is ridiculous to talk about creating human colonies on planets where there are no animals, trees, air, water and fertile soil........And where Temperatures are very different from earth.

One Space Shuttle exploded during take off.....another exploded on the return journey......so far Man has not gone beyond the Moon, and even on this short journey of a few days man took all his supplies - food, water and oxygen from earth......there are no planets with life sustaining things within the solar system......outside the solar system planets are light years away, millions of light years away.

Moving to another planet would probably rank as the most impossible of all impossible things.

People talk about the dangers of religion and call it an evil. It is true that religion has led to war, violence and hatred.......but it is still a pygmy compared to the greatest evils......science, technology and industrialization that have destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth in just 250 years after industrialization.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

The first base would probably be on the Moon with the first planet colony on Mars. When depends on just how much pressure we get from the Earth-bound issues.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Our present planet had huge amounts of things that created and sustained all life..........Millions of species of Animals, Trillions of acres of Forests, Rivers and Oceans full of water, Sky full of Air and Trillions of acres of fertile soil......And remember all these life sustaining things did not come into existence in a few years......It took Nature millions of years to painstakingly create them.

After destroying most of the living things and most of the life sustaining things on earth which took millions of years to come into existence, it is ridiculous to talk about creating human colonies on planets where there are no animals, trees, air, water and fertile soil........And where Temperatures are very different from earth.

The planet still has these things, just not quite as many now.



Both the Moon and Mars have water, which is important for an initial base. With water and the materials present air, soil, vegetation, and eventually animals could be introduced. The Moon would be less likely as it would be more suited for a smaller manufacturing and mining facility. Mars could be a large scale colony within the solar system. Outside of the solar system there are many possibilities. A few generational ships and we would be spread to the stars. Whether we thrive, survive, or die will depend on how well we adapt.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

The solutions are available right here on earth......not on some other planet.

Nature has already done millions of years of research on sustainability.

Nature has already given us millions of years of proof of sustainability.

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years [compared to Industrial Society]because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods and Services must stop immediately.......It should not continue for even one more day......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

Except for those periods of regional and mass extinctions.




They do destroy their environment at times. The predator population can grow too large and cause the prey to be eliminated thereby causing a kill off. Herbivores can overgraze an area and kill off their own food supply. It is generally not widespread to our knowledge, but we have only been watching for a relatively short time given the time frame referenced.



They did something to kill themselves off at times though.



As in Easter Island, perhaps?



Not even close. We have damaged a lot of the environment, but not destroyed it.



I wish you luck in getting that accepted.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

.....

In the course of my postings on the net I have come across some absurd replies.......but very few as nonsensical as these.

So facts are nonsensical now?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

For the last 50 years Intellectuals have been debating what is good for Environment......Capitalist Industrial Society, Communist Industrial Society or Socialist Industrial Society?

This is like debating what is good for people.....Capitalist Poison, Communist Poison or Socialist Poison.

Poison kills people.....it does'nt matter who made it ......Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

Industrial Activity kills ecosystems.....It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

All Industrial Activity destroys environment......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network and Shipping Lanes…..they all destroy environment….. It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

American Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems…..Russian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems……Chinese Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems…….Indian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems……Every Industrial Society destroys ecosystems…… It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

In just 250 years Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Forests, Wild Animals and Fish Population......Population of Lions, Tigers and Elephants is down to 2 - 5% of what it was 100 years ago......Population of Large Fish in Oceans is down to 10% of what it was 100 years ago.....Industrial Society has poisoned the entire planet with Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste.....It has killed Trillions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of acres of Fertile Soil with Cement And Concrete.

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years[compared to Industrial Society].......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed almost all Ecosystems in just 250 years......because it is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter......And even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Repeating a circular logic does not make it any more correct. Your generalizations are a bit over simplified to be correct.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment? Oh, I get it! Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment!

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TANG SOO!

We can only really speak for ourselves. Industrial Society has destroyed Sushilydv's mind and environment. People from India tend to be crowd tolerant and not see overpopulation as the root cause of increased industrialization with environmental depletion and destruction from pollution. It could be said that initial industrialization with the advent of fossil fuel use, and technology were the stimulus to the population increase. More food, less deaths as medicine got better, deep wells tapping fossil water, all increasing with the demands of a growing overpopulation. People did not adjust their reproduction to the new reality of longer lifespans and much less infant mortality. Wars also became less able to keep population in check and began to be negative evolutionary. The people least likely to understand the concepts of sustainability are the ones reproducing the most, with more negative evolutionary results. Those with the positive trait of crowd intolerance have fewer kids and move to less crowded areas until there are few left. Others with the trait who can not get out of the city, have an increased rate of anxiety and depressive illnesses, as evidenced in pharm chemical pollution in our waterways including birth control hormones. Mercury and its effects are a concern in many areas, and especially in seafood.
Research from Murtaugh and Schlax at Oregon State University shows that a hypothetical American woman who switches to a more fuel-efficient car, drives less, recycles, installs more efficient light bulbs, and replaces her refrigerator and windows with energy-saving models, would increase her carbon legacy by 40 times if she has two children.
There are far too many people on Earth for even an all agrarian sustainable society. There are far too many for even a world wide one child by force policy to prevent the inevitable rapid die-off of most of the human population of Earth, taking with it 25% of species. Continued fossil fuel burning until then guarantees passing the methane hydrate self release tipping points and a thermal maximum event in a short time geologically, with the completion of the Sixth Great Extinction already begun at the beginning of this interglacial epoch. This "event" will cause a species bottleneck of around 200K years with a cessation of the ice age cycle until then. It will take between 2 and 3 million years before species are as abundant as they were 12K years ago. All caused by one species---humans. The last time one species did something so drastic was when cyanobacteria brought the O2 level up to 20+%. That may have been a group of similar species, and if it didn't happen, then there never would have been humans, or dinosaurs.
Knowing does not cause insanity, although there is sometimes a sadness for the loss of a future for intelligent, strong people that will never be. A sadness for the people that will live in this time of madness around mid century or before.
I just go and play blues guitar.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

True, but you think it will be the end of humanity? I don't. Assuming we don't lose substantial technologies through war, what we have now remains available to a smaller, probably more intelligent bunch. Could be the best thing that ever happened to us.

_________________
TANG SOO!

There is only one cause of environmental destruction......Industrialization.

Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are only consequences/ by-products of Industrialization.

Overconsumerism is quite obviously a consequence of Industrialization..... Industrial consumer goods and services would not exist without Industrial Activity.

Overpopulation is also a by-product of Industrialization. The entire world was overbreeding until the middle years of 20th century.....even Western Countries had 5 - 12 children per family[and even more].....and yet population of the world remained low before industrialization because of high death rate, lower life span and shortage of food and water. It was only 1 billion in 1800 AD. India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago, since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions. What was the population of Europe/ America/ West 2000 years ago????......Was it comparable to eastern population of India and China????

Industrialization is the cause of overpopulation and overconsumerism.

Moreover, Environment has been destroyed by Industrialization/ Consumerism…….Not by Population/ Overpopulation.

Total World Population has not increased ……It has decreased……In fact total world population has been decimated.

When we talk of population we should take into account population of all animal species, not just human population.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species……Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of animal species. The total burden of population on this planet has not increased…..It has decreased.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of other species.....but there was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....and we don't even need to include smaller animals in this count.....the combined population of big animals alone whose size and weight was equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than current human population of 7 billion.

The amount of food this animal population was eating was much greater than the food consumed by humans today.......Yet millions of animal species did not destroy environment and lived sustainably on earth for millions of years......because they destroyed environment only for food and not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

If animals had started a consumerist "Industrial Society" millions of years ago they would have destroyed all ecosystems millions of years ago.

The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

What is the cause of human overpopulation??????......It is Industrialization......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion today ........In the absence of Industrialization world population would only be a small fraction of 7 billion today.

It is not population that destroys environment......It is lifestyle.......The combined population of millions of animal species was much greater than present human population.......and yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years because they destroyed environment only for Food.......not for Thousands of Consumer Goods.

The cause of Environmental Destruction is Industrialization / Consumerism.........Not population / overpopulation.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would not destroy environment [And a Hunter_Gatherer Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would cause much lesser environmental destruction than an Industrial Society of 7 billion [And an Agrarian Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

Industrialization is the cause of Human Overpopulation and Overconsumerism

It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.

Height of Insanity!

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment