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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:53 am 
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unfortunately u still havent shown any evidence that can directly prove that plants have feeling. what u showd is just an opinion, a conjecture, not a proved truth.

however, so many evidence, form most studies and reseaches, can tell us that feeling and consciousness come from brain and nerve. in other words, it's been clearly proved that plants do not have ANY feeling.

no matter there is a court or not. just think about it, can we use the same level to punish adults and children? why the punishments for children are much lighter? because they dont have high intelligence as adults.

sorry i can't response very often, because i have to do my own study.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:33 am 
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kaichen wrote:
Most invertebrates do not have the same level of feeling as vertibrates. For example the coelenterates; they do not have brain; how can they have the feeling


The way you react to stimuli and process the information deserves increased consideration because it is, simply, the way you do it?

Really?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:38 pm 
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If that were the case there would be no juvenille courts .... but we know there are courts to try children.


We also have training schools for animals.

Fosgate wrote:
kaichen wrote:
Most invertebrates do not have the same level of feeling as vertibrates. For example the coelenterates; they do not have brain; how can they have the feeling


The way you react to stimuli and process the information deserves increased consideration because it is, simply, the way you do it?

Really?


It's not because it's the way we do it, it's because the way we do it has more and self awareness and processing. If I smashed a flower to bits it would be a greater reaction that cutting myself, but I would be able to tell I cut myself whereas the flower wouldn't.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:51 pm 
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kaichen wrote:
unfortunately u still havent shown any evidence that can directly prove that plants have feeling. what u showd is just an opinion, a conjecture, not a proved truth.


Do you know what evidence actually is?

From the link:

"Jasmonic acid is a hormone that is made when plants are in distress. It signals the production of plant-defense compounds -- it works a little like a shot of pain, warning the plant that it is under attack. It can also volatilize and warn nearby plants, a chain reaction that's like a warning signal to other plants. This seems to particularly apply to insect attack, as the alerted plants then produce specific compounds that produce insect gastro-intestinal distress.


Quote:
however, so many evidence, form most studies and reseaches, can tell us that feeling and consciousness come from brain and nerve. in other words, it's been clearly proved that plants do not have ANY feeling.


Yes, feeling and consciousness are related to nerve and brain function, but that is not the only response to negative stimuli which would be classified as pain in relation to what we call it.

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no matter there is a court or not. just think about it, can we use the same level to punish adults and children? why the punishments for children are much lighter? because they dont have high intelligence as adults.


And that means they are still not innocent of their actions as I stated.

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sorry i can't response very often, because i have to do my own study.


Not a problem.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:57 pm 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
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If that were the case there would be no juvenille courts .... but we know there are courts to try children.


We also have training schools for animals..


That makes them innocent in what manner? We can train plants too.

Quote:
Fosgate wrote:
kaichen wrote:
Most invertebrates do not have the same level of feeling as vertibrates. For example the coelenterates; they do not have brain; how can they have the feeling


The way you react to stimuli and process the information deserves increased consideration because it is, simply, the way you do it?

Really?


It's not because it's the way we do it, it's because the way we do it has more and self awareness and processing.


That is your assumption, but being different means the same criteria does not always apply.

Quote:
If I smashed a flower to bits it would be a greater reaction that cutting myself, but I would be able to tell I cut myself whereas the flower wouldn't


No, the negative stimuli of the attack would cause hormone production, which is similar to the pain stimuli of animals and defensive chemicals would be produced as a result.

"Jasmonic acid is a hormone that is made when plants are in distress. It signals the production of plant-defense compounds -- it works a little like a shot of pain, warning the plant that it is under attack. It can also volatilize and warn nearby plants, a chain reaction that's like a warning signal to other plants. This seems to particularly apply to insect attack, as the alerted plants then produce specific compounds that produce insect gastro-intestinal distress.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:06 pm 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
It's not because it's the way we do it, it's because the way we do it has more and self awareness and processing.


Gee, that's great, but it doesn't answer my question. We do what we do because it is our nature. That is obvious. My question is, again, what makes your particular nature more profound, more deserving of consideration than that of another organism? What makes your awareness and processing, the way you react, so special?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:17 pm 
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kaichen wrote:
unfortunately u still havent shown any evidence that can directly prove that plants have feeling. what u showd is just an opinion, a conjecture, not a proved truth.

however, so many evidence, form most studies and reseaches, can tell us that feeling and consciousness come from brain and nerve. in other words, it's been clearly proved that plants do not have ANY feeling.

no matter there is a court or not. just think about it, can we use the same level to punish adults and children? why the punishments for children are much lighter? because they dont have high intelligence as adults.

sorry i can't response very often, because i have to do my own study.



Fallen fruit is the way to go. But it could still be dying! Therefore eating it would be the kindest thing to do for the fruit and your stomach.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:08 pm 
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just look at the words they use: "a little like", "that's like", "This seems". i'm afraid that that kind of things can't be treated as truth or evidence. again, the link you gave is just an opinion, a conjecture, not a proved truth.

pain is a kind of feeling, also related to nerve and brain function, which plants do not have. it's also a common sense.

no need to find fault with the words. they are obviously innocent, in comparason of the adults who do the same thing. at least you can't use the same standard to judge adults and children.

By the way, do you know what the situation in my country is? Most people there know little about animals right. Many people mistreat animals without any guilty. They say "they are just animals","they are unimportant" when they eat their pet dogs. So far there is not any animal welfare law to punish them, because many people do not accept it. And if someone introduce animal welfare law to them, they will act shemelessly and say the false concept loudly, just like "oh, animals do not have pain", "oh, plants have life, why dont you protect them". The words you picked up to support your opinion really remind me of those people.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:41 pm 
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kaichen wrote:
just look at the words they use: "a little like", "that's like", "This seems". i'm afraid that that kind of things can't be treated as truth or evidence.


So you have no experience with science then? The situations are similar but different. How does one indicate that to you?

Quote:
again, the link you gave is just an opinion, a conjecture, not a proved truth.


Again, your experience with science must be non-existent. It is evidence of the similarities between negative stimuli in animals and plants, which you call pain.

Quote:
pain is a kind of feeling, also related to nerve and brain function, which plants do not have. it's also a common sense.


The information you give is just an opinion, a conjecture, not a proved truth .... If one defines pain as requiring a brain and nerve functions, perhaps, but that is called begging the question in the things called logical fallicies.

Quote:
no need to find fault with the words. they are obviously innocent, in comparason of the adults who do the same thing. at least you can't use the same standard to judge adults and children.


More assumptions supported by the assumption it makes?

Quote:
By the way, do you know what the situation in my country is? Most people there know little about animals right. Many people mistreat animals without any guilty. They say "they are just animals","they are unimportant" when they eat their pet dogs. So far there is not any animal welfare law to punish them, because many people do not accept it. And if someone introduce animal welfare law to them, they will act shemelessly and say the false concept loudly, just like "oh, animals do not have pain", "oh, plants have life, why dont you protect them". The words you picked up to support your opinion really remind me of those people.


That might be due to the fact that animals have no rights as they have not given themselves any rights nor do the recognize or defend said rights in relation to themselves or other animals.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
kaichen wrote:
just look at the words they use: "a little like", "that's like", "This seems". i'm afraid that that kind of things can't be treated as truth or evidence.


So you have no experience with science then? The situations are similar but different. How does one indicate that to you?

Quote:
again, the link you gave is just an opinion, a conjecture, not a proved truth.


Again, your experience with science must be non-existent. It is evidence of the similarities between negative stimuli in animals and plants, which you call pain.

Quote:
pain is a kind of feeling, also related to nerve and brain function, which plants do not have. it's also a common sense.


The information you give is just an opinion, a conjecture, not a proved truth .... If one defines pain as requiring a brain and nerve functions, perhaps, but that is called begging the question in the things called logical fallicies.

Quote:
no need to find fault with the words. they are obviously innocent, in comparason of the adults who do the same thing. at least you can't use the same standard to judge adults and children.


More assumptions supported by the assumption it makes?

Quote:
By the way, do you know what the situation in my country is? Most people there know little about animals right. Many people mistreat animals without any guilty. They say "they are just animals","they are unimportant" when they eat their pet dogs. So far there is not any animal welfare law to punish them, because many people do not accept it. And if someone introduce animal welfare law to them, they will act shemelessly and say the false concept loudly, just like "oh, animals do not have pain", "oh, plants have life, why dont you protect them". The words you picked up to support your opinion really remind me of those people.


That might be due to the fact that animals have no rights as they have not given themselves any rights nor do the recognize or defend said rights in relation to themselves or other animals.


They are given no rights cos ignorant people like have decided they have no justification of rights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeqzOodJ_Hc

Who are you?




You are a self-opinionated upstart who thinks he has the justification of a God who happens to be in the 'superior' form of a human to impel those you see as inferior. How dare you.

Next time you poo remember you are not God.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:11 pm 
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mothy wrote:

They are given no rights cos ignorant people like have decided they have no justification of rights.


They are not given rights because they do not have rights ...period.

Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeqzOodJ_Hc

Who are you?


A realist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZRw0IYdf3g




Quote:
You are a self-opinionated upstart who thinks he has the justification of a God who happens to be in the 'superior' form of a human to impel those you see as inferior.


I have no justification from God, god, or gods. I have reality.


Quote:
How dare you.


How dare I what? If there are rights granted by the gods, god, or God those rights will be defended by whomever grants them. If they are not defended they do not exist.

Quote:
Next time you poo remember you are not God.


I know I am not God, or I would have corrected some of the earlier mistakes in humans .... I mean who puts a recreational area beside a waste facility?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:34 pm 
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hehe.. what's an opinion, a conjecture, a proved truth, and what is pain and whether plants can feel pains, you can just go find a high school science book to check it, i think you really need to. i won't argue with u anymore.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:

They are given no rights cos ignorant people like have decided they have no justification of rights.


They are not given rights because they do not have rights ...period.

Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeqzOodJ_Hc

Who are you?


A realist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZRw0IYdf3g




Quote:
You are a self-opinionated upstart who thinks he has the justification of a God who happens to be in the 'superior' form of a human to impel those you see as inferior.


I have no justification from God, god, or gods. I have reality.


Quote:
How dare you.


How dare I what? If there are rights granted by the gods, god, or God those rights will be defended by whomever grants them. If they are not defended they do not exist.

Quote:
Next time you poo remember you are not God.


I know I am not God, or I would have corrected some of the earlier mistakes in humans .... I mean who puts a recreational area beside a waste facility?



I see you put a cheap bug to rid me online. Man it must be good to be an internet god. Of course you will deny it.


What exactly do you mean by rights? Surely it is every animals right to live.


What is realistic?
Something you see fit?

Your reality is nothing better than that of a cobra.

God puts a recreational area beside a waste facility because that is how he perceives you.


Sometimes division is healthy. Sometimes it is nice to relax, Who is right and who is wrong. Who knows?

I had four cats whom I would have liked to see chasing the flies amongst the loch. It was never meant to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRDtrsuIEk8

I don't know. Who does?

Who cares what I care, who cares what you care? Perhaps if we all cared then care would take care of itself!

Mothy

It's not knowing the divisions, it is about knowing one has lived before and recognised the pitfalls.


Last edited by mothy on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:26 pm 
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kaichen wrote:
hehe.. what's an opinion, a conjecture, a proved truth, and what is pain and whether plants can feel pains, you can just go find a high school science book to check it, i think you really need to. i won't argue with u anymore.


I have never been able to find anything in my old college biology books that stated plants cannot feel negative stimuli can you give me a book title and page number?

In the interim try the Smithsonian channel : :mrgreen:

http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/site/ ... 509484001/

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:34 pm 
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mothy wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:

They are given no rights cos ignorant people like have decided they have no justification of rights.


They are not given rights because they do not have rights ...period.

Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeqzOodJ_Hc

Who are you?


A realist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZRw0IYdf3g




Quote:
You are a self-opinionated upstart who thinks he has the justification of a God who happens to be in the 'superior' form of a human to impel those you see as inferior.


I have no justification from God, god, or gods. I have reality.


Quote:
How dare you.


How dare I what? If there are rights granted by the gods, god, or God those rights will be defended by whomever grants them. If they are not defended they do not exist.

Quote:
Next time you poo remember you are not God.


I know I am not God, or I would have corrected some of the earlier mistakes in humans .... I mean who puts a recreational area beside a waste facility?



I see you put a cheap bug to rid me online. Man it must be good to be an internet god. Of course you will deny it.


What exactly do you mean by rights? Surely it is every animals right to live.


If that is the case, what or who defends that right to live? Every animal in the wild is subject to being killed by another animal.


Quote:
What is realistic?


What is relative to the real world not assumed or related to faith.

Quote:
Something you see fit?


More something which can be seen, felt, measured, or quantified in some fashion.

Quote:
Your reality is nothing better than that of a cobra.


If the cobra can perform rational logical thought, yes my reality is no better than that of the cobra.

Quote:
God puts a recreational area beside a waste facility because that is how he perceives you.


Really, there are those who claim God is a she .... and others who claim there are many gods.


Quote:
Sometimes division is healthy. Sometimes it is nice to relax, Who is right and who is wrong. Who knows?


The Shadow knows .....

Quote:
I had four cats whom I would have liked to see chasing the flies amongst the loch. It was never meant to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRDtrsuIEk8


I have know many flies I would like to see chasing lochs amoungst the cats ....

Quote:
I don't know. Who does?


I know some things as so many people, but they are not always the same things.


Quote:
Who cares what I care, who cares what you care? Perhaps if we all cared then care would take care of itself!


Why take care instead of giving care?

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“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
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