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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
kaichen wrote:
hehe.. what's an opinion, a conjecture, a proved truth, and what is pain and whether plants can feel pains, you can just go find a high school science book to check it, i think you really need to. i won't argue with u anymore.


I have never been able to find anything in my old college biology books that stated plants cannot feel negative stimuli can you give me a book title and page number?

In the interim try the Smithsonian channel : :mrgreen:

http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/site/ ... 509484001/



Wayne you have a good brain but you realise you have a young soul.
Nurture your intuitions for they will serve you good.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:42 pm 
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mothy wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
kaichen wrote:
hehe.. what's an opinion, a conjecture, a proved truth, and what is pain and whether plants can feel pains, you can just go find a high school science book to check it, i think you really need to. i won't argue with u anymore.


I have never been able to find anything in my old college biology books that stated plants cannot feel negative stimuli can you give me a book title and page number?

In the interim try the Smithsonian channel : :mrgreen:

http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/site/ ... 509484001/



Wayne you have a good brain but you realise you have a young soul.
Nurture your intuitions for they will serve you good.



There are those who claim I have no soul ..... and others who claim I have more than most. Who really knows?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:53 pm 
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tl;dq

Souls don't exist.


Now I don't necessarily believe in right other than the ones we grant ourselves and others. However, through realism

Could we stop suffering animals caused by other animals? Perhaps. But as of the moment, it simply isn't feasible. There will be too much research and money needed.

Humans can stop suffering of animals by getting rid of factory farming, eating more plants, and spreading the word out.

And even though plants may be able to have negative stimuli, you still need to show that they are self aware.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:02 pm 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
tl;dq

Souls don't exist.


Now I don't necessarily believe in right other than the ones we grant ourselves and others. However, through realism

Could we stop suffering animals caused by other animals? Perhaps. But as of the moment, it simply isn't feasible. There will be too much research and money needed.

Humans can stop suffering of animals by getting rid of factory farming, eating more plants, and spreading the word out.


If the animals are killed in a humane manner, unlike the natural predators, where is the problem?

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And even though plants may be able to have negative stimuli, you still need to show that they are self aware.


and none have to show that animals are self aware to meet the same criteria?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:51 am 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
Souls don't exist.


There is no scientific evidence for the existence of souls. Claiming that something doesn't exist, however, would be like saying that the earth is flat back when no one really knew any better.

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Now I don't necessarily believe in right other than the ones we grant ourselves and others. However, through realism


Putting beliefs to paper--the Bible, the Quran, even the US Constitution--doesn't make them any more "real". The only thing "real" about them are humans reacting in ways that support them.

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Could we stop suffering animals caused by other animals? Perhaps.


Of course we could. Probably wouldn't be advantageous for the animals involved, but it is certainly possible.

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But as of the moment, it simply isn't feasible. There will be too much research and money needed.


Bullets are pretty cheap. If you kill them, you end suffering, ufortunately the propagation of the species as well.

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Humans can stop suffering of animals by getting rid of factory farming, eating more plants, and spreading the word out.


You'd limit specific instances of abuse, yes, but you would not significantly impact suffering one way or the other.

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And even though plants may be able to have negative stimuli, you still need to show that they are self aware.


Actually, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that higher vertebrate stimulus response deserves increased attention.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:25 pm 
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Animal protection is NOT the most meaningful cause---reducing human population to long term sustainable level is.
As far as proof of a soul. People lose a small amount of weight at the time of death, I have heard.
In any event, I personally believe everything has a soul to a certain extent, even rocks. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Quote:
But as of the moment, it simply isn't feasible. There will be too much research and money needed.


Bullets are pretty cheap. If you kill them, you end suffering, ufortunately the propagation of the species as well.
[/quote]

So it wouldn't be good in the long run. So research is how we do it.

Quote:
Quote:
Humans can stop suffering of animals by getting rid of factory farming, eating more plants, and spreading the word out.


You'd limit specific instances of abuse, yes, but you would not significantly impact suffering one way or the other.


Image

Quote:
Quote:
And even though plants may be able to have negative stimuli, you still need to show that they are self aware.


Actually, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that higher vertebrate stimulus response deserves increased attention.


I just did. You just admit they are higher.


Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Animal protection is NOT the most meaningful cause---reducing human population to long term sustainable level is.
As far as proof of a soul. People lose a small amount of weight at the time of death, I have heard.
In any event, I personally believe everything has a soul to a certain extent, even rocks. :mrgreen:


Humans are animals and our actions impact other animals, so this would be a part of the cause anyways.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:06 pm 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
Actually, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that higher vertebrate stimulus response deserves increased attention.


I just did. You just admit they are higher.


You've demonstrated it because you got me to admit it? Wow. I hate to break it to you, but I made no such admission and if I did, it demonstrates nothing beyond agreement. You're really grasping for straws here. Why not simply answer the question?

Why is higher vertebrate stimulus response deserving of increased consideration?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:28 pm 
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If you don't know who higher vertebrate stimulus response is deserving of increased consideration there's no need to respond.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:34 pm 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
If you don't know who higher vertebrate stimulus response is deserving of increased consideration there's no need to respond.


Huh? That does not make sense as it is written.

It is too bad you cannot respond rationally to such a simple question.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:35 pm 
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cute kills logic. If I told you a vicious killer was causing the extinction of countless species including killing for fun and that there was a cheap way of preventing the rapid growth in the population of this species you might be in favor of killing some of these killers when they are young before they do damage. When I inform you that this method is called "clubbing baby seals" it suddenly seems like a different scenario... but it is not.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:40 pm 
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one of the most destructive invasive species that has caused more species extinction then humans is the animal shown in this YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQHCZcSRCOQ


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:47 pm 
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My point is to say that "higher stimulus response" makes little difference when you are trying to save animals from suffering. Club some seals, poison stray cats, and please PLEASE get your vasectomy or tubes tied to control the worst blight to the earth ever.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
GoGreenCO wrote:
.


Huh? That does not make sense as it is written.

It is too bad you cannot respond rationally to such a simple question.


If you don't know why higher vertebrate stimulus response is deserving of increased consideration there's no need to respond

If you want to put yourself in the same level as a plant despite having higher response to your environment, that's your choice.

Ann Vole wrote:
My point is to say that "higher stimulus response" makes little difference when you are trying to save animals from suffering. Club some seals, poison stray cats, and please PLEASE get your vasectomy or tubes tied to control the worst blight to the earth ever.


I think the last 2 don't involve as much suffering as the 1st. Most people use guns to hunt anyways.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:35 am 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
GoGreenCO wrote:
.


Huh? That does not make sense as it is written.

It is too bad you cannot respond rationally to such a simple question.


If you don't know why higher vertebrate stimulus response is deserving of increased consideration there's no need to respond

If you want to put yourself in the same level as a plant despite having higher response to your environment, that's your choice.


That is no real answer and the implied basis is flawed.

Why "put yourself in the same level" of ANY response lower than the one you belong? That is the question you cannot seem to answer beyond just an arbitrary desire.

Maybe you can go with the old "animals with faces" are cuter division? How about just warm fuzzy mammals?

Quote:
Ann Vole wrote:
My point is to say that "higher stimulus response" makes little difference when you are trying to save animals from suffering. Club some seals, poison stray cats, and please PLEASE get your vasectomy or tubes tied to control the worst blight to the earth ever.


I think the last 2 don't involve as much suffering as the 1st. Most people use guns to hunt anyways.


You think poison would cause less suffering than a crushing blow to the head? What happens to that "higher function" when the brain is separated from the spinal cord and crushed?

Also, what does using guns have to do with the points made?

You might want to just fall back to a pure emotional point rather than blowing the attempt to set some rational division which is randomly chosen.

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