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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:18 am 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
If you don't know who higher vertebrate stimulus response is deserving of increased consideration there's no need to respond.


That, my friend, is why folks like yourself gain no ground.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
GoGreenCO wrote:

If you don't know why higher vertebrate stimulus response is deserving of increased consideration there's no need to respond

If you want to put yourself in the same level as a plant despite having higher response to your environment, that's your choice.


That is no real answer and the implied basis is flawed.



Animal have a higher response to their environment, which makes them more self aware and suffering impacts their conscious more. Thus, it is ethical to prevent them from suffering due to the fact that they will have a better life

Better?

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Why "put yourself in the same level" of ANY response lower than the one you belong? That is the question you cannot seem to answer beyond just an arbitrary desire.


What? I don't agree with that. You seem to however, since you think the suffering of humans and animals is no more deserving of attention that that of plants.

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Ann Vole wrote:
My point is to say that "higher stimulus response" makes little difference when you are trying to save animals from suffering. Club some seals, poison stray cats, and please PLEASE get your vasectomy or tubes tied to control the worst blight to the earth ever.


I think the last 2 don't involve as much suffering as the 1st. Most people use guns to hunt anyways.


You think poison would cause less suffering than a crushing blow to the head? What happens to that "higher function" when the brain is separated from the spinal cord and crushed?

Also, what does using guns have to do with the points made?


Guns generally cause less suffering, although it depends on how you use them.

Before the animal will still feel pain. Furthermore, you don't know whether breaking their neck will immediately cease pain from them.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:24 pm 
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GoGreenCO wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
GoGreenCO wrote:

If you don't know why higher vertebrate stimulus response is deserving of increased consideration there's no need to respond

If you want to put yourself in the same level as a plant despite having higher response to your environment, that's your choice.


That is no real answer and the implied basis is flawed.



Animal have a higher response to their environment, which makes them more self aware and suffering impacts their conscious more. Thus, it is ethical to prevent them from suffering due to the fact that they will have a better life

Better?


Not really, as you also said some animals were below said "lower response" because some have lower "quality" nervous systems/brains. What level of "more" or "less" self aware makes the "better" life an issue or not?

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Why "put yourself in the same level" of ANY response lower than the one you belong? That is the question you cannot seem to answer beyond just an arbitrary desire.


What? I don't agree with that.


You do not agree with "putting yourself on the same level" of animals, which have lower levels of response on the species average? Did you not just reference the "higher vertebrate response", which includes responses BELOW that of humans.

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You seem to however, since you think the suffering of humans and animals is no more deserving of attention that that of plants.


No, human suffering is different from suffering of the various animal and plant species. You are proposing a positive comparison for some and not for others. The basis seems to be arbitrary at best. If the cut-off is set at one point, why is the point below excluded and the point above not?

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Ann Vole wrote:
My point is to say that "higher stimulus response" makes little difference when you are trying to save animals from suffering. Club some seals, poison stray cats, and please PLEASE get your vasectomy or tubes tied to control the worst blight to the earth ever.


I think the last 2 don't involve as much suffering as the 1st. Most people use guns to hunt anyways.


You think poison would cause less suffering than a crushing blow to the head? What happens to that "higher function" when the brain is separated from the spinal cord and crushed?

Also, what does using guns have to do with the points made?


Quote:
Guns generally cause less suffering, although it depends on how you use them.


Guns cause less suffering than rapid and severe damage to the brain and spinal cord? Do you have some data to support this claim?

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Before the animal will still feel pain. Furthermore, you don't know whether breaking their neck will immediately cease pain from them.


The evidence of the immediate loss of involuntary and voluntary functions, as well as consciousness would seem to indicate the loss of feeling, especially when there is also brain damage. The sweet spot for a sniper to kill a human is right where the brain and spinal column join and immediate death results.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:29 pm 
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I think someone has completely missed the point I was trying to make: the suffering of animals I was referring to was not the seals, the stray cats, or the humans but rather the animals who are negatively affected by those three species. I am trying to point out that the most effective way to help the most amount of individual animals to live a happy healthy life is to give them somewhere to live that is not decimated by invasive animals out to kill them (including humans... a naked ape that was never meant to live outside some tropic jungle but here we are in every habitat destroying homes of all other species).


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:20 pm 
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Ann Vole wrote:
I think someone has completely missed the point I was trying to make: the suffering of animals I was referring to was not the seals, the stray cats, or the humans but rather the animals who are negatively affected by those three species. I am trying to point out that the most effective way to help the most amount of individual animals to live a happy healthy life is to give them somewhere to live that is not decimated by invasive animals out to kill them (including humans... a naked ape that was never meant to live outside some tropic jungle but here we are in every habitat destroying homes of all other species).



Intelligence, emotion, logic, belief, faith ,evidence, experience. Some overlap some can be scrutinised in its raw form depending upon what part of reality it is pertaining to. The brain is an intrinsic and complex phenomenon and with all these external and internal manifestations of the brain coinciding with the intellect and emotive aspect they will result in a multitude of conclusions, ideas and thoughts. Yes Anne Vole, watchout out for the wise owl! We are the biggest killer and parasite on the planet.

What I don't understand is why do those who have a bigger awareness from those in general bring in the plant issue when it is obvious plants have an inferior pain threshold to animals?

And they are the meateaters! You would think if they are aware of the plants then they would think twice about eating animals? Just another anomaly in their reasoning.

And when my cats were dying of poison their screeches were as penetrating as a human that was stabbed.



The question is not can they reason nor can they talk but can they suffer?

Jeremy Bentham.

Meateaters are not the sort of people I would like to meet in times of war.

Mothy.

And why show a clip on youtube about a lion killing cubs? Are you going down to their level or bringing them upto your ideals in order to justify them? Infanticide has existed throughout the years and is deemed a monstrous act. What was the point ?


They are many conflicts going on, one of the more subtle ones which is more poignant to the supposed civilised west is that of Omnivore versus vegetarian.

Mothy.

Arrogance, pedantry and dogmatism. The occupational diseases of those who spend their lives asserting that which is inconclusive.


Isn't pure altruism the closest we can become to God?


Last edited by mothy on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:38 pm 
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mothy wrote:
What I don't understand is why do those who have a bigger awareness from those in general bring in the plant issue when it is obvious plants have an inferior pain threshold to animals?


The problem is that it is just as obvious animals have an inferior pain threshold to humans. Thus, if one threshold is immaterial why is another not?

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And when my cats were dying of poison their screeches were as penetrating as a human that was stabbed.


Pain does not count if the injured is mute?



Quote:
The question is not can they reason nor can they talk but can they suffer?


The hormonal release and electrical readings indicate they do feel negative stimuli, which we as humans call pain. Thus we suffer and as such assume every other animal does as well.


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And why show a clip on youtube about a lion killing cubs?


Just refuting the claim of the animals being innocent creatures.

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Are you going down to their level or bringing them upto your ideals in order to justify them?


See above.

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Infanticide has existed throughout the years and is deemed a monstrous act. What was the point ?


Innocent creatures doing monstrous acts? Who'd a thunk it?


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They are many conflicts going on, one of the more subtle ones which is more poignant to the supposed ciivilised west is that of Omnivore versus vegetarian.


How does a biological classification conflict with a dietary choice? Vegetarian humans are also omnivores.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Animals have an inferior pain threshold to humans? Scientific proof please?

Why do you harp on about the plight of plants when it is obvious that animals perceive pain on a higher plane?

Pain does not count if the injured is mute? I forgot you were referring to the cabbage you care so much about, take to bed and cuddle its little leaves. How sweet you care so much about plants Wayne. What about the higher form called animals?

You go on to agree animals suffer like humans. I'm getting confused now! Please explain?

And vegetarians are omnivores? Is that the spider they suck in whilst asleep? Please enlighten me.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:37 pm 
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mothy wrote:
Animals have an inferior pain threshold to humans? Scientific proof please?


It is just as obvious as your unsupported claim concerning pain.

But the higher mind functions can compound pain or lessen it, but not so with animals.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... gy-of-pain

Most people think of pain as resulting from physical injury or disease, but psychological factors play a huge role in pain perception. In the case of my elderly patient, my reassurance that the treatment would not significantly worsen his pain—because he could stop me if it did—produced an analgesic effect. In addition, reducing the man’s fear enabled him to look forward to pain relief instead, and that positive expectation also eased his pain.

Quote:
Why do you harp on about the plight of plants when it is obvious that animals perceive pain on a higher plane?


Because it is NOT obvious. The plant is different from animals in the feeling of pain, but then again is the animal different from humans ... yet you and others ignore the former while supporting the latter. I am just holding us all to the same criteria.

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Pain does not count if the injured is mute? I forgot you were referring to the cabbage you care so much about, take to bed and cuddle its little leaves. How sweet you care so much about plants Wayne. What about the higher form called animals?


Pour salt onto a slug, which is mute. Does it feel more or less pain due to the silence?

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You go on to agree animals suffer like humans. I'm getting confused now! Please explain?


Some animals have more similar nervous systems to humans than plants is all. There are differences too.

Quote:
And vegetarians are omnivores? Is that the spider they suck in whilst asleep? Please enlighten me.



Humans are omnivores, which means they can consume and digest both plant material and animal products. This means all humans are omnivores no matter what they choose to eat.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
Animals have an inferior pain threshold to humans? Scientific proof please?


It is just as obvious as your unsupported claim concerning pain.

But the higher mind functions can compound pain or lessen it, but not so with animals.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... gy-of-pain

Most people think of pain as resulting from physical injury or disease, but psychological factors play a huge role in pain perception. In the case of my elderly patient, my reassurance that the treatment would not significantly worsen his pain—because he could stop me if it did—produced an analgesic effect. In addition, reducing the man’s fear enabled him to look forward to pain relief instead, and that positive expectation also eased his pain.

Quote:
Why do you harp on about the plight of plants when it is obvious that animals perceive pain on a higher plane?


Because it is NOT obvious. The plant is different from animals in the feeling of pain, but then again is the animal different from humans ... yet you and others ignore the former while supporting the latter. I am just holding us all to the same criteria.

Quote:
Pain does not count if the injured is mute? I forgot you were referring to the cabbage you care so much about, take to bed and cuddle its little leaves. How sweet you care so much about plants Wayne. What about the higher form called animals?


Pour salt onto a slug, which is mute. Does it feel more or less pain due to the silence?

Quote:
You go on to agree animals suffer like humans. I'm getting confused now! Please explain?


Some animals have more similar nervous systems to humans than plants is all. There are differences too.

Quote:
And vegetarians are omnivores? Is that the spider they suck in whilst asleep? Please enlighten me.






Humans are omnivores, which means they can consume and digest both plant material and animal products. This means all humans are omnivores no matter what they choose to eat.




A slug has a brain but no vocal chords thus they cannot emit screams if they are in pain.
I find your manipulation of the forum as I'm trying to write pretty childlike.

I'm trying to type and the board goes off screen. If that is your mentality then there is no point in carrying on a discussion with you.

http://www.thenatureinus.com/2007/12/sl ... -like.html

I bid you goodnight amoeba. If you cannot function a forum without resorting to such tactics then I guess you and the cabbage will get along quite nicely together. \:D/ =D> [-X


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
mothy wrote:
Animals have an inferior pain threshold to humans? Scientific proof please?


It is just as obvious as your unsupported claim concerning pain.

But the higher mind functions can compound pain or lessen it, but not so with animals.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... gy-of-pain

Most people think of pain as resulting from physical injury or disease, but psychological factors play a huge role in pain perception. In the case of my elderly patient, my reassurance that the treatment would not significantly worsen his pain—because he could stop me if it did—produced an analgesic effect. In addition, reducing the man’s fear enabled him to look forward to pain relief instead, and that positive expectation also eased his pain.

Quote:
Why do you harp on about the plight of plants when it is obvious that animals perceive pain on a higher plane?


Because it is NOT obvious. The plant is different from animals in the feeling of pain, but then again is the animal different from humans ... yet you and others ignore the former while supporting the latter. I am just holding us all to the same criteria.

Quote:
Pain does not count if the injured is mute? I forgot you were referring to the cabbage you care so much about, take to bed and cuddle its little leaves. How sweet you care so much about plants Wayne. What about the higher form called animals?


Pour salt onto a slug, which is mute. Does it feel more or less pain due to the silence?

Quote:
You go on to agree animals suffer like humans. I'm getting confused now! Please explain?


Some animals have more similar nervous systems to humans than plants is all. There are differences too.

Quote:
And vegetarians are omnivores? Is that the spider they suck in whilst asleep? Please enlighten me.






Humans are omnivores, which means they can consume and digest both plant material and animal products. This means all humans are omnivores no matter what they choose to eat.




mothy wrote:
A slug has a brain but no vocal chords thus they cannot emit screams if they are in pain.


So the references to sound in relation to pain is not related?

Quote:
I find your manipulation of the forum as I'm trying to write pretty childlike.


That I were so powerful, but it is not my manipulation.

Quote:
I'm trying to type and the board goes off screen.


I have no idea of what may be happening.

Quote:
If that is your mentality then there is no point in carrying on a discussion with you.


It is not my mentality so there should be no problem in carrying on a discussion with me.

Quote:
http://www.thenatureinus.com/2007/12/slugs-and-snails-have-brains-like.html

I bid you goodnight amoeba. If you cannot function a forum without resorting to such tactics then I guess you and the cabbage will get along quite nicely together. \:D/ =D> [-X


The amoeba has no brain either ...... do they feel pain when we purify the water in which they live?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:25 pm 
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It seems I'm okay typing now since what I said has been amended.

Thank you.


The slug has no aesthetic qualities therefore to the average human has no standing in their moral compass.


The slug is doomed to die whether it feels or it does not.

I'm glad you are not playing your pathetic tricks. And why is that?

Gone off line? You intellectual ballbag. Gone to sleep with your cabbage patch kid? ZZZZZZ I'm raring to go and you go to slumberland?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:41 pm 
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life is that which exists between birth and death. To see the 'ugly' as beautiful makes death the beautiful end.

Mothy.


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