EnviroLink Forum

That, my friend, is why folks like yourself gain no ground.

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TANG SOO!

Animal have a higher response to their environment, which makes them more self aware and suffering impacts their conscious more. Thus, it is ethical to prevent them from suffering due to the fact that they will have a better life

Better?



What? I don't agree with that. You seem to however, since you think the suffering of humans and animals is no more deserving of attention that that of plants.



Guns generally cause less suffering, although it depends on how you use them.

Before the animal will still feel pain. Furthermore, you don't know whether breaking their neck will immediately cease pain from them.

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"In My view, all that is necessary for faith is the belief that by doing our best we shall come nearer to success and that success in our aims (the improvement of the lot of mankind, present and future) is worth attaining."- ROSALIND FRANKLIN

Not really, as you also said some animals were below said "lower response" because some have lower "quality" nervous systems/brains. What level of "more" or "less" self aware makes the "better" life an issue or not?



You do not agree with "putting yourself on the same level" of animals, which have lower levels of response on the species average? Did you not just reference the "higher vertebrate response", which includes responses BELOW that of humans.



No, human suffering is different from suffering of the various animal and plant species. You are proposing a positive comparison for some and not for others. The basis seems to be arbitrary at best. If the cut-off is set at one point, why is the point below excluded and the point above not?





Guns cause less suffering than rapid and severe damage to the brain and spinal cord? Do you have some data to support this claim?



The evidence of the immediate loss of involuntary and voluntary functions, as well as consciousness would seem to indicate the loss of feeling, especially when there is also brain damage. The sweet spot for a sniper to kill a human is right where the brain and spinal column join and immediate death results.

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With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

I think someone has completely missed the point I was trying to make: the suffering of animals I was referring to was not the seals, the stray cats, or the humans but rather the animals who are negatively affected by those three species. I am trying to point out that the most effective way to help the most amount of individual animals to live a happy healthy life is to give them somewhere to live that is not decimated by invasive animals out to kill them (including humans... a naked ape that was never meant to live outside some tropic jungle but here we are in every habitat destroying homes of all other species).

Intelligence, emotion, logic, belief, faith ,evidence, experience. Some overlap some can be scrutinised in its raw form depending upon what part of reality it is pertaining to. The brain is an intrinsic and complex phenomenon and with all these external and internal manifestations of the brain coinciding with the intellect and emotive aspect they will result in a multitude of conclusions, ideas and thoughts. Yes Anne Vole, watchout out for the wise owl! We are the biggest killer and parasite on the planet.

What I don't understand is why do those who have a bigger awareness from those in general bring in the plant issue when it is obvious plants have an inferior pain threshold to animals?

And they are the meateaters! You would think if they are aware of the plants then they would think twice about eating animals? Just another anomaly in their reasoning.

And when my cats were dying of poison their screeches were as penetrating as a human that was stabbed.



The question is not can they reason nor can they talk but can they suffer?

Jeremy Bentham.

Meateaters are not the sort of people I would like to meet in times of war.

Mothy.

And why show a clip on youtube about a lion killing cubs? Are you going down to their level or bringing them upto your ideals in order to justify them? Infanticide has existed throughout the years and is deemed a monstrous act. What was the point ?


They are many conflicts going on, one of the more subtle ones which is more poignant to the supposed civilised west is that of Omnivore versus vegetarian.

Mothy.

Arrogance, pedantry and dogmatism. The occupational diseases of those who spend their lives asserting that which is inconclusive.


Isn't pure altruism the closest we can become to God?

The problem is that it is just as obvious animals have an inferior pain threshold to humans. Thus, if one threshold is immaterial why is another not?



Pain does not count if the injured is mute?





The hormonal release and electrical readings indicate they do feel negative stimuli, which we as humans call pain. Thus we suffer and as such assume every other animal does as well.




Just refuting the claim of the animals being innocent creatures.



See above.



Innocent creatures doing monstrous acts? Who'd a thunk it?




How does a biological classification conflict with a dietary choice? Vegetarian humans are also omnivores.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Animals have an inferior pain threshold to humans? Scientific proof please?

Why do you harp on about the plight of plants when it is obvious that animals perceive pain on a higher plane?

Pain does not count if the injured is mute? I forgot you were referring to the cabbage you care so much about, take to bed and cuddle its little leaves. How sweet you care so much about plants Wayne. What about the higher form called animals?

You go on to agree animals suffer like humans. I'm getting confused now! Please explain?

And vegetarians are omnivores? Is that the spider they suck in whilst asleep? Please enlighten me.

It is just as obvious as your unsupported claim concerning pain.

But the higher mind functions can compound pain or lessen it, but not so with animals.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... gy-of-pain

Most people think of pain as resulting from physical injury or disease, but psychological factors play a huge role in pain perception. In the case of my elderly patient, my reassurance that the treatment would not significantly worsen his pain—because he could stop me if it did—produced an analgesic effect. In addition, reducing the man’s fear enabled him to look forward to pain relief instead, and that positive expectation also eased his pain.



Because it is NOT obvious. The plant is different from animals in the feeling of pain, but then again is the animal different from humans ... yet you and others ignore the former while supporting the latter. I am just holding us all to the same criteria.



Pour salt onto a slug, which is mute. Does it feel more or less pain due to the silence?



Some animals have more similar nervous systems to humans than plants is all. There are differences too.




Humans are omnivores, which means they can consume and digest both plant material and animal products. This means all humans are omnivores no matter what they choose to eat.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

A slug has a brain but no vocal chords thus they cannot emit screams if they are in pain.
I find your manipulation of the forum as I'm trying to write pretty childlike.

I'm trying to type and the board goes off screen. If that is your mentality then there is no point in carrying on a discussion with you.

http://www.thenatureinus.com/2007/12/sl ... -like.html

I bid you goodnight amoeba. If you cannot function a forum without resorting to such tactics then I guess you and the cabbage will get along quite nicely together.

So the references to sound in relation to pain is not related?



That I were so powerful, but it is not my manipulation.



I have no idea of what may be happening.



It is not my mentality so there should be no problem in carrying on a discussion with me.



The amoeba has no brain either ...... do they feel pain when we purify the water in which they live?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

It seems I'm okay typing now since what I said has been amended.

Thank you.


The slug has no aesthetic qualities therefore to the average human has no standing in their moral compass.


The slug is doomed to die whether it feels or it does not.

I'm glad you are not playing your pathetic tricks. And why is that?

Gone off line? You intellectual ballbag. Gone to sleep with your cabbage patch kid? ZZZZZZ I'm raring to go and you go to slumberland?

life is that which exists between birth and death. To see the 'ugly' as beautiful makes death the beautiful end.

Mothy.