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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:40 am 
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http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/03/12/ ... or-all-of/

Over the past few months, America's social safety net -- also known as its "entitlement" programs -- has gotten a tough rap. Republican presidential candidates and congressmen have decried its cost, its supposed infantilization of the citizenry, and its long-term effect on the American dream.

Yes, this collection of programs and services has been described as "a dime bag" of drugs that will "hook" users, a threat to America's "merit-based society," and a socialist tool that will steal "America's soul." And the people who accept money from these programs? They are "passive," "lazy," "slothful," and are "systematically destroying" America's work ethic.

Viewed in these stark terms, entitlements seem terrifying -- but when you look at who is actually receiving them, the picture changes rapidly.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
They are "passive," "lazy," "slothful," and are "systematically destroying" America's work ethic.


They as in all of them? No. They as in too many of them? Yes.

Promote the general welfare, don't provide it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
They are "passive," "lazy," "slothful," and are "systematically destroying" America's work ethic.


They as in all of them? No. They as in too many of them? Yes.

Promote the general welfare, don't provide it.


So you did not read the article?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
They are "passive," "lazy," "slothful," and are "systematically destroying" America's work ethic.


They as in all of them? No. They as in too many of them? Yes.

Promote the general welfare, don't provide it.


So you did not read the article?


Yes. Yes I did. I'm not convinced that those recieving entitlements aren't passive, lazy, slothful, and systematically destroying America's work ethic when those that aren't recieving them basically fit the same bill.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:22 pm 
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There are other entitlement programs costing a bundle not addressed. Like bloated government pay and retirement benefits. The Golden parachutes of our congressmen, and average government pay from 35% to double civilian counterparts. Then there are the statistics that 40% of blacks depend on some government money. Illegals getting Medicaid and food stamps, people on disability who aren't disabled except for being obese or obesity related. People on disability who didn't work many years, few, or none. Military disability given out to non-combat unit people, or minimal combat. It ruins it for those that saw a lot of combat and were hurt in combat. PTSD is given for people who, on just their word alone, were under combat stress just once. It used to be you had to have a combat MOS, had documented cases of combat, at least 50 heavy combat experiences, and a medal for bravery or being wounded(which could have been just stupidity). This type of fraud and pay raises not approved by the people is common with people getting government money (either as pay, retirement, or disability), and is one big reason why the National Debt is 15 trillion. In addition to taking out social security individual accounts and putting them in the general spending fund, by LBJ and Ted Kennedy. Our congressmen and other retired politicos get luxury medical benefits which cost a lot.
When I mentioned cutting government pay to my Republican congressman's office to reduce government spending back in 1994, it was looked at as some joke. The Dems are even worse!!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:49 am 
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I read the article and its full of bovine excrement. Since when is Social Security and Medicare, that the american taxpayer paid into considered an entitlement??? I've been taxed over $250,000 in my lifetime for those two programs and calling it an entitlement is an affront.

Now, there are certainly abuses in these programs, as Johnny mentioned where someone who has a bull crap condition, such as Agraphobia(fear of leaving your house) qualifies for disability payments. I was watching some judge show where someone with this condition was being sued, and the judge asked what she did for a living and she answered she was getting disability for agraphobia. It was funny as hell because the judge asked how in the hell could she have showed up for the show if she had that! And yes, people who do not take care of their health, get morbidly obese, and then qualify for disbility? Something wrong with this picture!

Welfare and food stamps, now those are entitlements and there is widespread abuse in those programs also. Instead of paying some woman to raise and feed a kid, who she either does not know the daddy, or refuses to disclose, and then allows her to have another, and yet another, all with different or unknown fathers, is insane!

I would definitely call this woman slothful, and a slacker:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/michigan-woman-still-collecting-food-stamps-winning-1-201751693.html

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:43 am 
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SiberD wrote:
I read the article and its full of bovine excrement. Since when is Social Security and Medicare, that the american taxpayer paid into considered an entitlement???


Since they were created by Congress ........ by definition.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entitlement

Definition of ENTITLEMENT
1
a : the state or condition of being entitled : right b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
2
: a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program
3
: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges


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I've been taxed over $250,000 in my lifetime for those two programs and calling it an entitlement is an affront.


Congratulations on making so much money. Working for someone puts it at over 4 million and as a self employed only over 2 million lifetime. Of course, that is not including what could be made above the limit for SS, since that is the bigger percentage of the two.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:51 am 
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What I find amusing is the number of staunch conservatives I have known over the years who railed against the entitlements and the abuses therein ..... right up to the point they, their children, grandchildren, or other close relative qualified for a benefit and then they just signed up and railed against the other entitlements and the abuses ... not including their own, of course.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:20 am 
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Well, yeah, you're right, I do think that I am entitled to money involuntarily contributed by myself and my employers. And, that figure does include the amounts my employer contributed, by force.

And I do have a problem with those monies being used for people who are clearly scamming the system, which is more prevalent than your article implies.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:27 am 
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SiberD wrote:
Well, yeah, you're right, I do think that I am entitled to money involuntarily contributed by myself and my employers. And, that figure does include the amounts my employer contributed, by force.


You are entitled to your employers money? That is a bit of a dichotomy in positions. I suppose you would only be entitled to the amount paid in and not more in this view?

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And I do have a problem with those monies being used for people who are clearly scamming the system, which is more prevalent than your article implies.


As long as you "know" that without the benefit of actual data to support it .......

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:26 am 
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You are entitled to your employers money? That is a bit of a dichotomy in positions.


Of course I am, it was paid on my behalf, and as you well know, the costs of an employee not only includes their salary, but also any and all benefits paid, including any pension plans, medical insurance, car allowances, stock options......all of that is figured into the cost of an employee.

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I suppose you would only be entitled to the amount paid in and not more in this view?


No, itd should be more as I should have at least earned interest on this money instead of it being used by the Federal Gov't for other expenses and replacing that money with essentially IOU's.

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As long as you "know" that without the benefit of actual data to support it .......


That's one of the nice things about opinions, eh? And I think your article is disengenous including elderly people on social security and medicare as an example of entiltement programs and basing most of his "facts" article on that group.

I'd like to see estimates on the amount of fraud that takes place amongst welfare recipients and the amount of money spent on medical care for illegal immigrants.

Of course its all going to come to a screaching halt at the rate everything is going. With both medical insurance costs, and medical costs itself, increasing at a staggering 8 to 10% per year, the laws of exponential growth will make both unaffordable for all but the wealthy.

And with Social Security, and both public and private pensions paying out more than what is coming in already, or within the next 10 years....its all moot.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:45 am 
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Oh, lets not leave out a real biggy, the amount of fraud, not on the recipients end, but on the biller's end, concerning medicare fraud.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
As long as you "know" that without the benefit of actual data to support it .......


I have faith in data as well. However, based on personal experience, I'd gauge that roughly 90% of those with whom I've worked that have been schooled in the ways of analysis, stats, etc., have little if any clue on how to apply their training. The conclusions they draw generally aren't any better than a random Joe going off something anecdotal he heard from his best friend's nephew's monkey's uncle. Government, private industry, there was really no difference.

So anyway, data's nice, yes. Does it help? Probably not.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:51 pm 
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It is an affront that with all the money you have put in, Fosgate, all you will be entitled to get is around 2K/mo, unless you make too much from other sources, then they will keep it. The spending of what was originally supposed to be individual interest bearing accounts is what started the growth only unsustainable economy.
Still, the question of bloated government pay and benes is not addressed. From 80K/yr. congressional secretaries to congressional Golden Parachutes to military pay 6+ times what it was in 68-70 for combat CW2s. The official inflation rate was 3-4% max/yr.
In essence, every election cycle brings promises of even more gov't pay raises, effectively vote buying. Then they give themselves raises, to the point of making far more in retirement than when working.
Fraud in the system must be gotten rid of, but it is small compared to gov't overpay. I would like to see that rectified and a return of the draft with no one escaping, and not all just for the military at low buck like it was. Infrastructure repairs/improvements, and those congressional secretaries could be done by low buck draftees.
Enforcement of our immigration laws, too. Enough fines are owed, many by gov't employees, for felony violation of Title8USC1324 and by illegals for Title8USC1324 plus phony ID felonies, littering the border, trespassing and destruction of National Parks/Forests, to pay off the entire National Debt many times over. But no Republicans or Democrats have done much to get those monies, or to reduce spending in the form of excessive gov't pay.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:15 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Oh, lets not leave out a real biggy, the amount of fraud, not on the recipients end, but on the biller's end, concerning medicare fraud.


But you just argued that medicare should not be called an entitlement, yet you wish to discuss it in the entitlement thread. So, how much worse than regular insurance fraud is this "real biggy" of fraud really?

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