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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:21 pm 
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You are entitled to your employers money? That is a bit of a dichotomy in positions.


Of course I am, it was paid on my behalf, and as you well know, the costs of an employee not only includes their salary, but also any and all benefits paid, including any pension plans, medical insurance, car allowances, stock options......all of that is figured into the cost of an employee.

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I suppose you would only be entitled to the amount paid in and not more in this view?


No, itd should be more as I should have at least earned interest on this money instead of it being used by the Federal Gov't for other expenses and replacing that money with essentially IOU's.


And if you had become disabled early on in your career, you would not have accepted any benefits over that amount paid in for you and a reasonable interest applied thereto ..... right?

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As long as you "know" that without the benefit of actual data to support it .......


That's one of the nice things about opinions, eh?

Other than the difference between an informed and uninformed opinion?

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And I think your article is disengenous including elderly people on social security and medicare as an example of entiltement programs and basing most of his "facts" article on that group.


If you try to change the definition of a term anything can then be called disengenous, I suppose. Those facts were only used in relation to the percentage of the entitlement programs which have been subejct to proposals to cut spending by the GOP.

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I'd like to see estimates on the amount of fraud that takes place amongst welfare recipients and the amount of money spent on medical care for illegal immigrants.


You could look for them. I am sure that has been studied by someone.

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Of course its all going to come to a screaching halt at the rate everything is going. With both medical insurance costs, and medical costs itself, increasing at a staggering 8 to 10% per year, the laws of exponential growth will make both unaffordable for all but the wealthy.


That would be the group the GOP seems to try to protect at all costs ... or more correctly the money belonging to that group.

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And with Social Security, and both public and private pensions paying out more than what is coming in already, or within the next 10 years....its all moot.


Possibly, but there is a lot of money owed the SS fund too.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
As long as you "know" that without the benefit of actual data to support it .......


I have faith in data as well. However, based on personal experience, I'd gauge that roughly 90% of those with whom I've worked that have been schooled in the ways of analysis, stats, etc., have little if any clue on how to apply their training. The conclusions they draw generally aren't any better than a random Joe going off something anecdotal he heard from his best friend's nephew's monkey's uncle. Government, private industry, there was really no difference.

So anyway, data's nice, yes. Does it help? Probably not.


This is just basic percentages, which should be easy enough for anyone with basic math skills. If they were trying to determine trends, that would be another matter, but dividing a small number by the sum total of all of the small numbers and multiplication of that product by 100 to get a percentage should not be that difficult.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:01 pm 
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And if you had become disabled early on in your career, you would not have accepted any benefits over that amount paid in for you and a reasonable interest applied thereto ..... right?


If I was truly disabled yeah, I would accept benefits. I do not begrudge people collecting disability, food stamps, or other assistance, if they truly need them. Where did you get the idea that I was against that? I know of a guy who is totally disabled from spinal injuries he suffered on the job, had multiple surgeries, and the surgeons say they can do nothing more for him. The guy is now pretty much a different person from what I knew as he takes oxycotin regularly to control the pain. I have nothing against him, or his family getting assistance. I'm against people, lawyers, and doctors who knowingly defraud the system with bogus claims.

And besides, maybe they could use some of the money SS took from my sister who died before receiving benefits? Minus the $255 we got to help bury her ;-)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:26 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
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And if you had become disabled early on in your career, you would not have accepted any benefits over that amount paid in for you and a reasonable interest applied thereto ..... right?


If I was truly disabled yeah, I would accept benefits. I do not begrudge people collecting disability, food stamps, or other assistance, if they truly need them. Where did you get the idea that I was against that?


Because that would be an entitlement from SS since they would not have paid into the fund as much as they are getting out. If everyone is due what they paid in and interest as you supported, they should not get any more out or it becomes that thing you say it is not.

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I know of a guy who is totally disabled from spinal injuries he suffered on the job, had multiple surgeries, and the surgeons say they can do nothing more for him. The guy is now pretty much a different person from what I knew as he takes oxycotin regularly to control the pain. I have nothing against him, or his family getting assistance. I'm against people, lawyers, and doctors who knowingly defraud the system with bogus claims.


You do know that nearly every type of claim is rejected on the first application and to get the second application through you almost have to have an attorney involved.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:32 pm 
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I'm against people, lawyers, and doctors who knowingly defraud the system with bogus claims.


I am fully aware as I saw how he had to go through three appeals but what part of "who knowingly defraud" don't understand?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:04 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
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I'm against people, lawyers, and doctors who knowingly defraud the system with bogus claims.


I am fully aware as I saw how he had to go through three appeals but what part of "who knowingly defraud" don't understand?


The "defraud" aspect is subjective and more so knowing nearly every application which is accepted requires an attorney, lawyer, and claimant.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:53 am 
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I looking at the fraud aspect I found a lot of discussion on short payments, slow payments, costs of management, and frustration. I saw no direct references, but what I did see reminded me of situations I have seen in other industries and the solutions may be similar. To offset the short falls in cost some of the "fraud" may be the attempt to recover costs rather than getting something for nothing.

http://www.aha.org/content/00-10/09medi ... ayment.pdf

In the aggregate, both Medicare and Medicaid payments fall below costs and the shortfall has
been growing.

 Combined underpayments rose from $3.8 billion in 2000 to $32 billion in 2008.

 For Medicare, hospitals received payment of only 91 cents for every dollar spent by
hospitals caring for Medicare patients in 2008.

 For Medicaid, hospitals received payment of only 89 cents for every dollar spent by
hospitals caring for Medicaid patients in 2008.

 In 2008, 53 percent of hospitals received Medicare payments less than cost, while 56
percent of hospitals received Medicaid payments less than cost.


I was reminded of the situation I saw in car dealerships back in the stone age (collage age for me) where the waranty allowances were insufficient and the mechanics would refuse to do the work. The managers would "pad" the claims with additional work to offset the loss to the mechanic who was paid for the work performed or a small guarantee if there was not sufficient work. This was fraud, but it was a simple work around to get a more fair wage for the mechanic and get the waranty work completed for the customer.

From some of what I have read concerning litigation and attempts to get changes made, I can see where the same type of work around would have an appeal to some operations. I can also see where that could grow into more than a coverage of cost.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:33 am 
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OK, entitlements, with food stamps being one of them....


Image


<sarcasm>Appears as if our recovery is right on schedule</sarcasm>

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:28 am 
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SiberD wrote:
OK, entitlements, with food stamps being one of them....


Image


<sarcasm>Appears as if our recovery is right on schedule</sarcasm>



<more sarcasm>It appears we did not cut enough taxes, abuse enough women, or discriminate against others to cause the recovery as the uber conservatives believe is the only way </more sarcasm>

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:01 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
This is just basic percentages, which should be easy enough for anyone with basic math skills. If they were trying to determine trends, that would be another matter, but dividing a small number by the sum total of all of the small numbers and multiplication of that product by 100 to get a percentage should not be that difficult.


It shouldn't be, but then basic percentages are fairly easy to derive in support of or against <insert something here>, if not meaningless altogether. How much is too much? How much is not enough? If you had basic utilities in your home "only" 95% of the time, you'd tire of it pretty quickly if the 5% of the time you didn't was when you needed it most. We generally have a low tolerance for that which is considered undesirable. It hardly takes most or a majority fraction for something--a process, a system, whatever--to be labeled as unacceptable or incapable. Again however, we have to define our bounds up front.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:13 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
This is just basic percentages, which should be easy enough for anyone with basic math skills. If they were trying to determine trends, that would be another matter, but dividing a small number by the sum total of all of the small numbers and multiplication of that product by 100 to get a percentage should not be that difficult.


It shouldn't be, but then basic percentages are fairly easy to derive in support of or against <insert something here>, if not meaningless altogether.


The basic percentages in this case are what is spent for each entitlement and where does that entitlement then fall into the category of causing/allowing "deadbeats". The rest is a non-math determination,

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How much is too much? How much is not enough? If you had basic utilities in your home "only" 95% of the time, you'd tire of it pretty quickly if the 5% of the time you didn't was when you needed it most.


That would be a non-math determination as well.

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We generally have a low tolerance for that which is considered undesirable. It hardly takes most or a majority fraction for something--a process, a system, whatever--to be labeled as unacceptable or incapable. Again however, we have to define our bounds up front.


It does go towards the claims of the amount of perceived abuse by certain individuals or groups and the potential savings from stopping those abuses. It is one place where the law of diminishing return is often ignored in the lower and lower tolerance approach.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:30 am 
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the uber conservatives


the uber conservatives? Would they be related to the just as corrupt, uber liberals?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:51 am 
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That would be a non-math determination as well.


So?

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It does go towards the claims of the amount of perceived abuse by certain individuals or groups and the potential savings from stopping those abuses.


Actually, it delves much deeper. The abuses are simply examples, like those of individual animals highlighted by opponents of factory farming. It's the system itself they wish to see gone.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
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That would be a non-math determination as well.


So?


That means the math training has nothing to do with it.

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It does go towards the claims of the amount of perceived abuse by certain individuals or groups and the potential savings from stopping those abuses.


Actually, it delves much deeper. The abuses are simply examples, like those of individual animals highlighted by opponents of factory farming. It's the system itself they wish to see gone.


Yes, they want the system gone and try to use misleading and anecdotal information to acheive that goal, but the actual data does not support those claims.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:08 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
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the uber conservatives


the uber conservatives? Would they be related to the just as corrupt, uber liberals?


Hardly, as they are opposite ends of the spectrum.

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