EnviroLink Forum

Except for the part about being corrupt of course.

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

There is corruption and those who are not corrupt all along the scale.

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With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

I think the corrupted outweighs the uncorrupted all along the scale, big time.

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

If your daily utility demand came at a time when you had no service, despite that service otherwise being available 95% of the time, would you put down the electric and water companies despite the data not supporting your claims? Would your concerns be any less valid?

Whether you look at it this way or in terms of government services/entitlements, we have a customer base. With the latter, taxpayers are practically customers. Some don't think they are getting their money's worth. In business, we would never--ever--respond to dissatisfied customers by providing data indicating that we were an overall solid performer. That's what you're doing, assuming of course folks accept your information at face value. Politicians do a particularly good job at it as well. Enough folks fall for it to keep them in office.

Knowing data is great. Knowing when to use it and what to do with it is an entirely different matter. At the end of the day, enough is enough, however much that might be. The customer is always right.

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TANG SOO!

My concerns would be valid for me if the service was actually out, but if 99% of the rest of the population had no similar problems the data would support it as a minimal problem at best. If I was mistaken in the service being out and my main breaker had tripped and my interiror water valve had been turned off there would be no problem other than my mistake. Even if an action causes one death in a billion instances, there would not be a major concern given a supportive cost benefit analysis, except if you were that billionth person.



Sure you would if the alternative was to change your process to address that dissatisfied customer which would in turn cause more of the formerly satisfied customers to become dissatisfied or cost more to correct than the profit of that one dissatisfied customer. Any other approach is not condusive to staying in business.



No, the complaint is the AMOUNT of perceived abuse and the assumed costs of said abuse, not that anyone in particular has been involved with not getting the service they should from the entitlements programs. This is countered by the data showing where the areas in which the money is allocated and what would be available for the type of abuse claimed.



Yes, that seems to be the case here. The opposition to the data based on a customer belief



No, that is a false idea, the customer is far too often wrong and must be told so. They are still the customer, so they must be told in a nice way, but still told. Just as in the case of my belief the power and water service had failed, I would need to be told the service was there and my connection was the real problem even if I am a customer saying otherwise.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

If 99% of the rest of population...if you were mistaken...if I added enough "if/then" conditions...but I didn't. We're simply talking about a service that is available 95% of the time, barring domestic maintenance issues or misunderstandings. That 95% can be a great thing or a phenominally bad thing depending on when and/or where the outages actually occur.



No, I surely would not offer an otherwise stellar track record as consolation if the altnernative were to simply adjust a process and potentially piss off existing satisfied customers. I would offer it up, however, if there was a known potential solution in the near future that would not negatively affect existing satisfied customers.

Adjusting for one just to piss off existing, satisfied customers? What? Where did that come from?



No. Again, the actual compliant is the existence of the system.



It’s hardly the case here. The only relevant data is that customers aren’t getting what they want from their investment.



To the contrary. The customer may not know what they want or how to ask, but they know with confidence they want and sure as hell know what they don't want. That’s what we’re talking about here. It is up to the provider to determine and satisfactorily meet their need. Giving customers something they don’t want and/or when they don’t want doesn’t fly.



Alright, from the standpoint of demand, the customer is always right. Better?

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TANG SOO!

Actually you did, you added the biggest if/then which was if the person complaining actually had a problem with the service. It the case of the entitlements that is not the case. They perceive a problem with others using the service.




And that is not a huge IF in this discussion on entitlements?



Then you have too little experience with a variety of customers or a poor business model.





http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/co ... 885038.htm
I get a kick out of business buzzwords. Reengineering. Rightsizing. Repurposing. One of the latest you may have heard bandied about is "Voice of the Customer." It's a phrase that, in fairness, recognizes that companies can go astray by making decisions without fully understanding their effect on those they serve. But I've also heard the term invoked as a way to trump (or delay) an idea born of inspiration or imagination—as if by magically incorporating "the voice of the customer" a company can somehow eliminate risk.

Regardless of whether it's used as an offensive or defensive weapon, the voice of the customer is a double-edged sword. It's not that we shouldn't listen to customers or place special emphasis on understanding their wants and needs, concerns and complaints. It's that we must do so with discernment: Sometimes the customer is just plain wrong.

http://www.customerservicemanager.com/i ... -right.htm

http://www.twistimage.com/blog/archives ... ays-right/



An if?



No, I never said that. I did say that making changes to make one customer happy can cause other customers to become unhappy in the process. It can also cause more expense than it warrants too.



That may be the ultimate compalint by some, but the one being vocalized is about the amount of perceived abuse.



Not as much as they oppose making any investment in society and they have not become customers of the service or they would not continue to complain.



No they do not. Many THINK they know what they want and do not want, but most of the time they really have no idea.




Well, the people complaining about the entitlements are not using them, do not plan on using them, but would happily do so if the situation arose. That means they were not customers, are not customers, and probably will not be customers for a long time. They are concerned with the present and not the future or the benefits to society at large.




No, they still are not always right. They will demand twice the quality for half the price of your cost and delievered immediately with no shipping charges if given the chance.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Yes, which translates into them having a problem with that in which they are investing. The service is to society as a whole, not just the individuals receiving specific benefits.



Hey, it's my hypothetical, don't go changing it.



Hardly!



Of course. No sense in bragging about how good I am to someone that obviously has a problem with me. That's just asinine.



It can, but not necessarily. Honestly, I don't even know why you'd mention such a thing. We go through great pains to ensure any permanent corrections do not adversely affect the existing value stream. You don't just shoot from the hip. But then, maybe you do.



Read between the lines.



Society IS the customer.



I've never had a customer NOT able to tell me what they don't want. It's pretty easy to do, especially after the fact. Not knowing what they want up front, I can understand. My point, however, was that the customer is always right in terms of demand. They may not know what they want, but they know that they want something. They may communicate it articulately or via complete bullshit, but it is evident in our discussion what the customer wants and does not want. Obviously, the customer doesn't want abuse. You're getting hung up on a technicality--the amount of abuse. It goes further than that. You're not aligned with the customer.



Again, anyone investing is a customer.



Of course they are. If we continue the way we are, everyone eventually loses.

[/quote]

But their actions--what they buy--are the final say, no?

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TANG SOO!

They have a perceived problem because they do not want to invest anything PERIOD. They will never be happy with the investment regardless of the benefit the society receives. Thus, their problem is moot.



I did not change it, just pointed out the use of a big if in relation to my little ifs.



If you still believe the customer is always right, that belies that position. Unless you are just giving the saying lip service and actually progessing when the customer is wrong.



But if the customer is always right you must be a problem .... right.



No, but when special modifications are known to happen the first time one cannot be made will enlist a very unhappy customer because the other guy got what he wanted. This is from 40 years of sales experience in several different industries.



Ok the compalint is without merit becaue there is no way to make them happy. Therefore we ignore them for the fringe view they are.



But soceity is not making any complaints those few who do not want to help are.



You either deal with very simple items or have very special customers. Most only have a minimal idea of what they need and want the impossible.



Knowing they want something is a far cry from knowing what they want. You can tell them what they need, but that still does not mean they will know what they want as much as they will know what they will accept.



Yes I am. You are confusing the vocal fringe with being the society, which is incorrect. The customer may not want abuse, but unless they are willing to pay for it they will have to accept a level of abuse.



Again you are saying ALL of them have a problem when that is not the case.



That is an opinion and there are other opinions which disagree with that view.



No, they are the final say for them once the seller has given the best deal they believe is profitable for them. If they say no, there should be another customer who will say yes to the same deal.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I worked for a Fortune 100 company, which also had a sister division in our offices. This sister division did a lot of custom bearing manufacture along with some other functions. One of the sales engineers and I had a running discussion on which of us had the stupidest requests for products. A couple of his more memorable examples are:

One customer wanted a specialized bearing built to demanding engineering specs to fit into a heavy prototype design. The problem was if the engineer had increased the diameter of the bearing housing by 1/32nd of an inch they would have been able to use a standard design with slightly better specifications and 1/10th the cost. It would also have improved the maintenance capacity because it was a standard component. The engineer had designed everything from the ground up and wanted everything to be that design. The production costs were much higher as were the maintenance costs, but they got what the engineer wanted ... not what they needed or should have wanted.

Another case required a specific manufacturing process, which was illegal in the US but the product was going into the defense industry and could not be manufactured outside of the US. He went around with them for months before management told them to either use what was legal for them or go elsewhere. They tried to go elsewhere because he got the same quote form different sources for over a year afterward before they finally stopped. This would have been easily solved by the use of a different and better process if the customer had listened to the advise of the product engineers.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Entitlements.....THE REAL STORY


with the use of one simple graphic,

_________________
I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

Yes!! Lets cut off support for all of those old or disabled folks dragging our economy down. They used to just die off and now they are just parasites on society.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Geez Wayne, that's pretty cruel of you! However, math is math and the numbers show something has to be done as you cannot spend more than you bring in. So, somehow, some way, benefits have to be cut, more revenue brought in, or maybe medical costs and insurance costs need to be re-examined and be curtailed in some way.

I have the invoice my parents got from the hospital when I was born. My mother had a two day visit and the total cost of delivery, nursing care, and room came to $47 and some change. Yeah, I'm older that dirt as that was 1953, but back then people didn't need major medical insurance except for catastrophic diseases or accidents. My parents didn't have medical insurance and paid the bill out of pocket. Both insurance and medical costs in this country is outrageous.

Now, from the standpoint of medical care of the elderly, we also have to rethink some of our priorities. I'm not saying an old person should go off in some corner and die due to illness but should we be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars on an 80year old patient who has prostate cancer? Something that may prolong his life for three to six months?

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I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.

I have blue Cross Blue Shield for medical insurance for myself and my employees. For a time we switched carriers about every year because we could bypass the double digit increase in premiums, but that became a thing of the past a few years back. Now we bump up the deductibles and such to keep the increases below 15% per year.

A week or so ago we spent the evening at the symphony where Blue Cross, our non-profit insurance carrier group, was thanked for the several thousands of dollars donated directly and even more in the form of matching funds for that event. Instead of keeping the costs at a minimum they give huge bonuses and donate to the charities. I am not opposed to donations but BCBS, but not when their costs for our insurance have more than tripled in the past 20 years.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

They don't want to invest...anything? Period? Really? You have data to back that up or are we making an anecdotal leap?



Alight then, add +/- 1% around 95 to account for misunderstandings, mistakes, etc. Would you or would you not be happy with that level of service?



If you still believe the customer is always right, that belies that position. Unless you are just giving the saying lip service and actually progessing when the customer is wrong.[/quote]

You do realize that the phrase refers to a customer base determining demand, not an individual person stating that a hot dog vendor sells tacos when they clearly do not, right? I hope so.



Just to make this easier for me, how many dissatisfied customers are we talking here? The concept of a fix for some that just pisses off others is alien to me. I find it odd even discussing it and question the robustness of the value stream in question.



Riiiiiiight.



Ahh, you think the only ones with the problem are the ones making it known that they have a problem. Of course.



More complex than power hand tools and less complex than a car...is that complex enough? I don't know exactly what you mean by "special" customers. Do dealer/distributors count? At any rate, they not only know what they want, but know very well what is needed when the end customer doesn't have a clue. Basically, the only end customer concern is whether or not the product functions as intended. Expectations are defined and understood from start to finish.



Technically, they don't need to know what they want. That's ultimately up to you to figure out and come up with the business model to provide it. What they accept is important and translates into minimally met expectations. But we're not concerned with that as much as we are exceeding them. Again, we have to figure that out ourselves.



You're confusing a non-vocal component for those who are satisfied, which is incorrect. The voting booth speaks the loudest.



Anyone doing anything about it? Is it working? You do realize that the ideal is for entitlements/benefits to trend downward, right? Is that happening?



Not really. I'm saying more than a vocal, fringe minority has a problem with it.



True, but it doesn't make them any less wrong.



Customer base...

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TANG SOO!