EnviroLink Forum

I don' know what to say about the incaceration rates in the US.

As some prisons are privatized .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mGYHRAKs4Q

even kids are fodder....

What a beautifically functioning system.

Again math is our friend if one wants to know actual statistics. The RT reports seem to be less accurate and more sensational from what I have seen.

http://ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezaucr/asp/ucr_display.asp

Showing from 2001 - 2008 US Juvenile Violent Crimes per year on average

~1250 juvenile arrests for murder/ non-negligent manslaughter

~3500 juvenile arrests for violent rape

~29,000 juvenile arrests for robbery

~ 60,000 juvenile arrests for aggravated assault

Thus, the 2500 figure quoted for those incarcerated after conviction does not seem to be that out of line.

A good age breakdown of age at arrest would help their case IF the majority of those convicted are not in the upper ranges of what we call a juvenile.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

I agree that life in prison is cruel (but not unusual) punishment for juveniles, adults, and the taxpayers. It costs more than most people make per year to incarcerate someone, and of course people only pay a percentage in taxes, so it takes many people's taxes to incarcerate one person. In the meantime, taxes not spent on infrastructural upkeep cause a gradual breakdown in other areas, like bridges and roads. Statistically, 3 time burglars on up are 90% certain to commit crimes again after release. They also have a 50% higher reproductive rate and their children have a 66% chance of ending up in prison too. From articles I have read over the years.
I wrote Gore in 1995 a list of things that had to be done to lower population and pollution. One of those was to execute rapidly with a 22 bullet to the head (cheaply) all 3 time burglars on up (then compost their bodies with red worms to replenish depleted soils). This would help prevent future crime and save taxpayer money. It would have prevented cruel punishment to criminals and taxpayers over the long term. It would have helped lower population(along with nearly stopping immigration, and no tax write offs for kids) and improved the quality of the population while deterring crime.
Instead we have extremely gross overpopulation and an increase in juvenile crime, along with a National Debt of 15+ trillion and proportionate increase in pollution and depletion of resources.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”
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I'm not interested in the "actual" statistics because a focus on them misses the point entirely.

What was the point other than supposedly there are too many juvenile convicts in the US? If you do not know how many there are how do you know if there are too many? If you do not know the particulars of the cases, how do you know anything?

Is there a real difference in convicting a person for murder who has lived for 17 years 11 months and 27 days as compared to someone who has lived for 18 years and 1 day?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

[quote="Johhny Electriglide"]I agree that life in prison is cruel (but not unusual) punishment for juveniles, adults, and the taxpayers.

We are talking about imprisoned children.

Do you know of another nation that imprisons children at the same rate? Could you please name them?

Would the determination of the actual statistics not be necessary to have any intelligent discussion on the determination of "too many"? In order to know what is going on one needs to know how many of each age group is being incarecerated compared to how many there are of each group.



If you want an absolute you will always fail. Unless you have a means to remove all children below the age of 18 from the planet



Would that no be actual statistics?



So how many 363 day olds being incarcerated for crimes? If there are none the discussion is moot. The same holds true for 12 year olds. Without a breakdwon of how many are incarecerated as adults there is no way to know if there is actually something to discuss or not.



Really? How many and of what age are they? What is the youngest convicted and senteced to life in prison? I know that was it implication of the video, but as I said, the source has been less than stellar in the past for similar poor implications.



Really? They are in general populationat what age again.



In the real world wondering what the real facts may be. Where are you?



In my case it is asking for real information. In yours it appears it is leaping to a conclusion based on some implications designed to be sensational and very emotional.



This is very important as I believe the majority of those juveniles convicted as adults are closer to the 18 year cut off than not. Without any hard information it is hard to accept there are not the older convicts.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

First we would need to know the rate by which the US imprisons "children" in order to compare would we not? The opposition is either one is too many or there is some other rate which is too many. Until the goal posts are settled in the discussion is only one of assumption of assumptions.

http://www.handsoffcain.info/archivio_n ... 36&mover=2

May 6, 2005: there are 2,100 children in jails across the Philippines, 20 of them on death row.
The figure was disclosed by Senator Ralph Recto who called on the Department of Justice to look into each of the cases of these children-prisoners languishing in overcrowded detentions nationwide.
Recto said government prosecutors and judges should "legally spring children out" of harshest conditions in many of the 1,222 jails all over the country. (Sources: Manila Standard, 07/05/2005)

http://inquest.gn.apc.org/website/polic ... -in-prison

The ECHR is an international treaty to protect human rights and fundamental freedoms in Europe, incorporated into UK law as the Human Rights ActThe Human Rights Act 1998 is an Act of Parliament that incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law. 1998. All Council of Europe member states including the UK have signed the Convention. Between January 2000 and December 2010 there was a total of 129 deaths of young people (aged 21 and under) and children aged 14-17 in prison and secure training centres. This figure includes 12 self-inflicted deaths of children in penal custody.

INQUEST believes that for many young people, prison is an inappropriate place where their experience of imprisonment can contribute directly to their death. We believe there needs to be a proper understanding of how vulnerable children should be treated in the criminal justice system and are calling for a properly-resourced public inquiry into the deaths of the 31 children who have died in state custody since 1990 in the hope that proper lessons can be learnt from these tragic deaths.

INQUEST has particular concerns about the high levels of restraint used on children in custody. We have produced case briefings on the restraint related deaths in 2004 of 14 year old Adam Rickwood, who took his own life in Hassockfield Secure Training Centre shortly after being restrained by staff, and 15 year old Gareth Myatt who died following the use of a controversial method of physical control at Rainsbrook STCSecure Training Centre.


http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s516102.htm

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/phi ... 30525.html

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

A good age breakdown of age at arrest would help their case IF the majority of those convicted are not in the upper ranges of what we call a juvenile.[/quote]



I'm not interested in the "actual" statistics because a focus on them misses the point entirely.[/quote]

What was the point other than supposedly there are too many juvenile convicts in the US?

You don't get the point. Yes Wayne, there are too many child prisoners arrested and incarcerated as youth. How does one do the math?



If there is one case there is too many. Do the real math! We are talking about 12 year olds as well as 17 and 363 day year olds. We are imprisoning children. The "particulars" of the case are that they are children given life sentences and forced to spend their entire lives in prisons with adults. They will get to hang out with people who will rape them and who will make them harder than they already are.

Where are you wayne? What is this?

[/quote][/quote]

I don't know what you mean by "real". We must draw the line somewhere. Why must the US convict a person to adulthood when they are not ..... either by several years or by a day? How do those who are not yet an adult, even by one day, end up convcited as an adult?

Johny says that 'I agree that life in prison is cruel (but not unusual) punishment for juveniles, adults, and the taxpayers. [/

We are talking about imprisoned children.

You Wayne say, "First we would need to know the rate by which the US imprisons "children" in order to compare would we not? The opposition is either one is too many or there is some other rate which is too many. Until the goal posts are settled in the discussion is only one of assumption of assumptions."

Forget it. I don't really care about how many children are imprisoned in Saudi Arabia or elsewhere around the globe. Why compare? We are talking about the US. Are the goal posts not obvious? One child is too many. Is there one child in the US incarcerated? Are there more than one? This is the math.

And from your own sources ....


http://www.handsoffcain.info/archivio_n ... 36&mover=2

May 6, 2005: there are 2,100 children in jails across the Philippines, 20 of them on death row.
The figure was disclosed by Senator Ralph Recto who called on the Department of Justice to look into each of the cases of these children-prisoners languishing in overcrowded detentions nationwide.
Recto said government prosecutors and judges should "legally spring children out" of harshest conditions in many of the 1,222 jails all over the country. (Sources: Manila Standard, 07/05/2005)

http://inquest.gn.apc.org/website/polic ... -in-prison

The ECHR is an international treaty to protect human rights and fundamental freedoms in Europe, incorporated into UK law as the Human Rights ActThe Human Rights Act 1998 is an Act of Parliament that incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law. 1998. All Council of Europe member states including the UK have signed the Convention. Between January 2000 and December 2010 there was a total of 129 deaths of young people (aged 21 and under) and children aged 14-17 in prison and secure training centres. This figure includes 12 self-inflicted deaths of children in penal custody.

INQUEST believes that for many young people, prison is an inappropriate place where their experience of imprisonment can contribute directly to their death. We believe there needs to be a proper understanding of how vulnerable children should be treated in the criminal justice system and are calling for a properly-resourced public inquiry into the deaths of the 31 children who have died in state custody since 1990 in the hope that proper lessons can be learnt from these tragic deaths.

INQUEST has particular concerns about the high levels of restraint used on children in custody. We have produced case briefings on the restraint related deaths in 2004 of 14 year old Adam Rickwood, who took his own life in Hassockfield Secure Training Centre shortly after being restrained by staff, and 15 year old Gareth Myatt who died following the use of a controversial method of physical control at Rainsbrook STCSecure Training Centre.


http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s516102.htm

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/phi ... 30525.html[/quote]

Then such a zero tolerence approach makes any attempt to discuss this is useless. If even a mass murderer a day short of their 18th birthday is immune from adult prosecution in your mind there is nothing left.



We are? How many have been tried and convicted as an adult in the US? That would be the first data point required for the math.



How many are there given life sentences in adult prisons in the US again? Can you give us any particulars on the cases?



Maybe and maybe not. You have one questionable media report and nothing else of substance on which to go.



I take a case by case approach. If the crime is sufficiently violent and premeditated how do we protect society from the "child"? Try them as a child which will mean they will be relased from custody on their 18th birthday with the records sealed.



Significant or even measurable difference.



It would be because of how the juvenille convictions are handled. They are released upon reaching adulthood and the criminal record is sealed. If the crime is sufficiently bad the trial as an adult changes the amount of time they can be kept away from society and also keeps their record from being sealed from public record.




The jury reaches the conclusion based on the evidence presented by the prosecution and defense for a crime deemed severe enough for the transfer to the adult criminal system.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

If your position is one child is too many there is no reason to discuss it with you as you have no rational base from which to begin. One crime is too many, yet we have them and we have to determine ways to protect society from the people who have committed the worst crimes.

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/20 ... istory.php

Nov. 4, 1992 -- Thomas ''T.J.'' White, 15, and Marcus Fernandez, 16, killed state Trooper Lyle Wohlers. White is sentenced to consecutive 16-year terms for accessory to murder. Fernandez is sentenced to life without parole.

Is this crime a problem for you? Is a sentence of 2-3 years in a low security juvenille facility a good way to make sure these two do not kill an unarmed (next time) person?

Oct. 31, 1993 -- Paul English, 14, shot and killed Carl Banks Jr., 18, in Park Hill, as he was shepherding a group of trick-or-treaters. He was sentenced to 48 years in prison.

A 4 year sentence for killing someone in front of a group of kids is sufficient?

Feb. 25, 1995 -- Raymond James Gone, 16, shot and killed Denver police officer Shawn Leinen. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

Killing an armed officer would not need more than a 2 year sentence to protect unarmed people the next time?

Sept. 28, 1996 -- Jennifer Tombs, 16, shot and killed her baby sitter Latanya Lavallais, 23. She was sentenced to life in prison.

A killing by a 16 year old would draw a 2 year sentence in juvenille court. Is that sufficient for the crime?

Nov. 15, 1996 -- Antonio Scott Farrell, 17, and Kevin Blankenship, 16, kidnapped Barbara Castor, 76, from a Brighton parking lot, tied her up and left her near abandoned dam near Strasburg. She died of exposure. They were sentenced to life sentences plus 56 years.

Killing an old woman by exposure would not need more than a 1-2 year sentence especially if the trial could not be finished before the juvenille court lost jurisdiction.

Sept. 7, 1998 -- Alexander Pogosyan, 17, and friend Michael Martinez, 18, killed four teenagers and a mother in a Labor Day rampage. Martinez was later slain. Pogosyan was sentenced to five consecutive life terms without parole.

Five deaths and less than a year in jail is justice, right?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

So are you interested in how many there are, or the particulars of the cases of which there are?

Wrong .... as giving life sentences to teen-agers, without posibility of parole, is also wrong.