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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:34 am 
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http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ia/436859/

"The illegal or duplicate BT seeds are extremely hazardous for the cotton growers as it also hurts the financial viability of cotton cultivation. In Gujarat alone such spurious seeds are consumed in the range of 1.1 million to 1.6 million packets every year. There is no assurance of good productivity from such duplicate seeds. It would reduce the yield. Ideally, with the introduction of improved Bollgard II variety of seeds, the yield per hectare should have risen to 900 kg, while it has been reversed to 659 kg per hectare in 2010-11," said N M Sharma, managing director, Gujarat State Cooperative Cotton Federation (Gujcot).

Cotton yield in Gujarat was recorded at 772 kg per hectare in 2007-08. The state grows cotton on 2.6 million hectares, of which 0.8 million hectares is cultivated under traditional cottonseeds, while the remaining is covered under BT cottonseeds. However, industry body maintains a different view about the reducing cotton yield in the country. The National Seeds Association of India (NSAI) holds weather conditions responsible for a drop in the cotton yield rather than the use of illegal cottonseeds. "Drop in the yield is primarily because of the uncertain weather conditions in past couple of years and not because of the use of illegal seeds," said Harish Reddy, secretary, NSAI.

Adding further he said, "A large area of cotton cultivation falls under the rain-fed regions like Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, which holds about 60 per cent of the total cotton acreage in the country. Climatic extremities in this region would lead to a fall in the yield. Hence, the drop in the yield is mainly because of the uncertain weather conditions than the use of the illegal seeds."

Over the years, BT cotton has yielded heavy returns for the cotton growing farmers in India. Lured by the attractive prices of cotton, more and more farmers turned to Bt cotton cultivation, which helped cotton acreage to rise from 9.41 million hectares to over 11 million hectares in 2010-11. According to government statistics, of the total cotton acreage, nearly 88 per cent is under Bt cotton cultivation, which has risen by 10 per cent over last year.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:56 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
I was wrong


:eh:

I'm confused.


It seemed the percentage of farmers commiting suicide would not have been off based on the population,


That was a joke. Gotcha. :razz:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:01 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
I was wrong


:eh:

I'm confused.


It seemed the percentage of farmers commiting suicide would not have been off based on the population,


Fosgate wrote:
That was a joke. Gotcha. :razz:


Yes, I was fooled since you are so often confused ..... :lolno: :mrgreen: :twisted: :evil: :razz:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:21 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Yes, I was fooled since you are so often confused ..... :lolno: :mrgreen: :twisted: :evil: :razz:


You're that easily fooled? :twisted: :razz:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:41 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Yes, I was fooled since you are so often confused ..... :lolno: :mrgreen: :twisted: :evil: :razz:


You're that easily fooled? :twisted: :razz:


Yes, since you are that easily confused I was. :razz: 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Yes, I was fooled since you are so often confused ..... :lolno: :mrgreen: :twisted: :evil: :razz:


You're that easily fooled? :twisted: :razz:


Yes, since you are that easily confused I was. :razz: 8)


But...but...I wasn't confused. 8-[

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Yes, I was fooled since you are so often confused ..... :lolno: :mrgreen: :twisted: :evil: :razz:


You're that easily fooled? :twisted: :razz:


Yes, since you are that easily confused I was. :razz: 8)


Fosgate wrote:
But...but...I wasn't confused. 8-[


You are so often it was easy to believe you were this time too ..... :-$ \:D/

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:00 am 
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[quote="Wayne Stollings"]I was wrong, as 250,000 is a high number of suicides for farmers in India. To reach that total you have to include every suicide past 1997, which is five years before the Bt cotton was introduced. It seems there was some intentional misrepresentation by the anti-GM folks, which really makes me question everything else .... especially when I look into the larger picture.

http://www.ifpri.org/sites/default/file ... p00808.pdf

Keep investigating that larger picture because there is one.

"A recent paper from IFPRI, "Bt cotton and Farmer's Suicides in India" ..... covers up the risks ... and is detatched from reality.Yet it is aimed at shaping public opinion about GM crops by using every trick in the trade to separate the impact of of GM crops on farmers from the seed monopoly and the technology of producing non-renewable seeds ...."

http://www.whale.to/b/shiva1.pdf

And, ....

When Bt cotton does well it is "technology". When it does badly, it is blamed on something else. This opportunistic separation is at the heart of IFPRI's false argument that Bt cotton and farmer's suicides are not related. As the IFPRI article which you reference states: "In specific regions and years, where Bt cotton may have indirectly contributed to farmer's indebtedness leading to suicides, it's failure was mainly the result of .... some environmental factor ... in which it was introduced or planted" ... Bt cotton as a technolgy is not to blame." Vendana points out that this argument is askew because all technolgies are embedded in their environments. "There are no disembodied technologies, other than in ideology."

But dig a little more ....

http://i-sis.org.uk/farmersSuicidesBTCottonIndia.php

Some of the "effects of Bt cotton are a resurgence of secondary pests as well as reduced yields of other crops on land cultivated with Bt cotton." (Plagues of mealey bugs).

"A decade of planting with GM cotton or any GM crop with any
Bt genes could lead to total destruction of soil organisms, leading dead soil unable to produce food."


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:32 am 
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"EVERY farmer is there to make a profit due to hunger or they will not be in business, so they are now bad? It is possible to do both in the real world where real facts are used instead of beliefs and misrepresentations like your source presented."

Farmers are just trying to make a living and support their families, contribute to their communities, build schools for their children. They are not there to "make a profit due to hunger." They are there because the soil and earth has always sustained them. Farmers are not now bad. No.

But they are now crying out for help. They are resisting the colonization of their farmland by corporations who would like to turn their villages into global supermarkets. They are resisting the criminalization of the very simple at of saving seeds. And so am I. What could be more simple?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:03 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
The same type of story, which sounds so horrible until the question is raised of how Bt cotton had such a huge negative impact 7 years before it was approved for use.

http://taketheflourback.org/resistance- ... the-world/

India

Bt cotton is the only GM crop approved in India. Bt cottonseeds are modified with the toxin Cry to control the bollworm pest. (3) Bollworm have developed resistance to Bt cotton, so a new version, ‘Bollgard II’, has been created, containing 2 additional toxic genes. As pests become more tolerant to insect-resistant GM crops, more toxins have to be developed, adding increasing amounts of toxins to the food supply.

Bt cotton has been linked to a wave of smallholder farmer suicides in India. Over the last 20 years, India’s agriculture has been opened up to the global market, increasing costs and trapping many farmers in debt. As agriculture in India has become more focused on producing cash crops, multinational corporations have increased their control. Big agribusinesses like Monsanto market expensive biotechnology as a solution to farmers struggling to compete in the global market.

Between 1995 and 2010, more than a quarter of a million farmers have committed suicide in India. Debt and poverty is driving many farmers to suicide, some of whom have swallowed the poisonous pesticides used to spray their Bt cotton crops. (4) The highest rates of suicide are in areas producing the most cotton. (5) Over 50,000 farmers took their own lives in Maharashtra between 1995 and 2010. Maharashtra was the richest state during that period. (6)



I may have posted this article. Why have you?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:54 am 
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I was wrong

:eh:

I'm confused.[/quote]

It seemed the percentage of farmers commiting suicide would not have been off based on the population, [/quote]

That was a joke. Gotcha. :razz:[/quote]

What is there to joke about? Where is the 'gotcha" that you somehow got? Got who or what? So transparant as to the pom-poms and cute skirts. Divest yourself of your cheer-leading outfit and truly engage in this discussion. I invite you.

There was an increase/upsurge in farmers' suicides in light of the introduction of GMO's in India. India's farmers have suffered the introduction of Bt cotton. If you would follow the conversation and put aside your pom-poms .... Engage in the conversation and even inform yourself, you might be worth conversing with.

Look at Youtube (a world of education there). Look at "An Evening With Vendana Shiva"

Either that or continue to make light as you like to do. It is fun to crack some jokes, ... , especially when in support of the one ... 'cuz then you don't have to atually think for yourself.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:10 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
I was wrong, as 250,000 is a high number of suicides for farmers in India. To reach that total you have to include every suicide past 1997, which is five years before the Bt cotton was introduced. It seems there was some intentional misrepresentation by the anti-GM folks, which really makes me question everything else .... especially when I look into the larger picture.


http://www.ifpri.org/sites/default/file ... p00808.pdf

Keep investigating that larger picture because there is one.


Yes, and it appears that you have missed it.

Quote:
"A recent paper from IFPRI, "Bt cotton and Farmer's Suicides in India" ..... covers up the risks ... and is detatched from reality.Yet it is aimed at shaping public opinion about GM crops by using every trick in the trade to separate the impact of of GM crops on farmers from the seed monopoly and the technology of producing non-renewable seeds ...."

http://www.whale.to/b/shiva1.pdf


From the same source tying the farmer suicides to GM crops for several years before the GM crops were approved to use? Which source has more credibility? The one which can be supported by facts from other sources or the one I have already caught misrepresenting the truth?

Quote:
And, ....

When Bt cotton does well it is "technology". When it does badly, it is blamed on something else. This opportunistic separation is at the heart of IFPRI's false argument that Bt cotton and farmer's suicides are not related. As the IFPRI article which you reference states: "In specific regions and years, where Bt cotton may have indirectly contributed to farmer's indebtedness leading to suicides, it's failure was mainly the result of .... some environmental factor ... in which it was introduced or planted" ... Bt cotton as a technolgy is not to blame." Vendana points out that this argument is askew because all technolgies are embedded in their environments. "There are no disembodied technologies, other than in ideology."


Try a little reading outside of the propaganda pieces. India has the issue of rainfall. It either does not come at all, which is not that uncommon and droughts do affect any agricultural process regardless of spin, or it comes in over abundent volumes in different areas at different times.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/monsoon/html/intro.html

Many Indians fear the monsoon's deadly floods, which regularly sweep away unlucky communities. But farmers also rely on it to coax their crops from the soil. Indeed, without the monsoon's storms, which can deliver up to 90 percent of a year's rainfall, almost a billion people would go hungry.

But dig a little more ....

Quote:
http://i-sis.org.uk/farmersSuicidesBTCottonIndia.php


The link did not work.

Quote:
Some of the "effects of Bt cotton are a resurgence of secondary pests as well as reduced yields of other crops on land cultivated with Bt cotton." (Plagues of mealey bugs).


Here I thought one of the problems with the use of GM crops was the creation on non-diverse crops and this seems to indicate otherwise. Which way is it?

Quote:
"A decade of planting with GM cotton or any GM crop with any
Bt genes could lead to total destruction of soil organisms, leading dead soil unable to produce food."


Or not, since Bt cotton has been in use in India for a decade now, those concerns seem to be as well founded as the data concerning the suicides.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:17 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
"EVERY farmer is there to make a profit due to hunger or they will not be in business, so they are now bad? It is possible to do both in the real world where real facts are used instead of beliefs and misrepresentations like your source presented."

Farmers are just trying to make a living and support their families, contribute to their communities, build schools for their children. They are not there to "make a profit due to hunger." They are there because the soil and earth has always sustained them. Farmers are not now bad. No.

But they are now crying out for help. They are resisting the colonization of their farmland by corporations who would like to turn their villages into global supermarkets. They are resisting the criminalization of the very simple at of saving seeds. And so am I. What could be more simple?


They are using the Bt cotton more and more each year to MAKE A PROFIT because they do not eat the cotton. Cotton is the only GM crop allowed in India. The saving of seed is a violation of the agreement and is theft, plain and simple. They can plant regular cotton and save the seed if they wish, but they also must accept lower yields. So, it seems that if it is truly farmers in the discussion, they are wanting their cake and to eat it too. I suspect it is more non-farmers who do not want the GM crops who are more involved.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:27 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
The same type of story, which sounds so horrible until the question is raised of how Bt cotton had such a huge negative impact 7 years before it was approved for use.

http://taketheflourback.org/resistance- ... the-world/

India

Bt cotton is the only GM crop approved in India. Bt cottonseeds are modified with the toxin Cry to control the bollworm pest. (3) Bollworm have developed resistance to Bt cotton, so a new version, ‘Bollgard II’, has been created, containing 2 additional toxic genes. As pests become more tolerant to insect-resistant GM crops, more toxins have to be developed, adding increasing amounts of toxins to the food supply.

Bt cotton has been linked to a wave of smallholder farmer suicides in India. Over the last 20 years, India’s agriculture has been opened up to the global market, increasing costs and trapping many farmers in debt. As agriculture in India has become more focused on producing cash crops, multinational corporations have increased their control. Big agribusinesses like Monsanto market expensive biotechnology as a solution to farmers struggling to compete in the global market.

Between 1995 and 2010, more than a quarter of a million farmers have committed suicide in India. Debt and poverty is driving many farmers to suicide, some of whom have swallowed the poisonous pesticides used to spray their Bt cotton crops. (4) The highest rates of suicide are in areas producing the most cotton. (5) Over 50,000 farmers took their own lives in Maharashtra between 1995 and 2010. Maharashtra was the richest state during that period. (6)



I may have posted this article. Why have you?



To show the blatant misrepresentation of the propaganda being put out on the subject.

Note the claim of 250,000 farmers killing themselves between 1995 and 2010? That sounds like the nasty GM crops were responsible does it not? You say it was something you would use to support your position, so I would expect that to be the case. The problem is that GM cotton was not approved until the spring of 2002 and only saw limited planting in the beginning. That means half of the period used to show the suicide rate was pre-GM acceptance and could not have been caused by the GM boogey man.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:37 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
What is there to joke about? Where is the 'gotcha" that you somehow got? Got who or what? So transparant as to the pom-poms and cute skirts. Divest yourself of your cheer-leading outfit and truly engage in this discussion. I invite you.

There was an increase/upsurge in farmers' suicides in light of the introduction of GMO's in India. India's farmers have suffered the introduction of Bt cotton. If you would follow the conversation and put aside your pom-poms .... Engage in the conversation and even inform yourself, you might be worth conversing with.


There was? Where was this data presented? You and the other anti-GM proponents have shown the increase/upsurge in farmer suicides started some seven years befroe the GM cotton was approved. How exactly was the cotton able to have such an impact for so long before it was ever accepted for use?

Quote:
Look at Youtube (a world of education there). Look at "An Evening With Vendana Shiva"


I did and without credibility the video is just one person's beliefs. If you choose to hold that belief you will enjoy it, but if you want the truth you will have to go elsewhere to be sure you find it.

Quote:
Either that or continue to make light as you like to do. It is fun to crack some jokes, ... , especially when in support of the one ... 'cuz then you don't have to atually think for yourself.


So not thinking for myself caused me to look at the data being presented, compare it to the data on Bt cotton usage, the recent history of agricultrue in India, and discover there has beeen some significant misrepresentation of the facts by those opposing GM crops. While you have thought for yourself and promoted the false propoganda pieces these same folks have presented? Is that about right?

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